The Last Jedi Spoiler thread

[cracher]

Yeah, for this franchise in particular, I wouldn't think box office performance is a great measure. I didn't like it the 1st viewing, sorta liked it in 3D 2nd viewing, and was meh again last night for the 3rd viewing.

Because star wars.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

It is not valid when talking about a specific movie that has been released and can be judged on its own merits.

Oh yeah I've seen this movie and it was good but in general tentpoles suck so I guess it sucks. Makes sense.

You are really emotionally committed to defending this thing, huh? And you didn't even like it. This is just strange.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by cracher

Yeah, for this franchise in particular, I wouldn't think box office performance is a great measure. I didn't like it the 1st viewing, sorta liked it in 3D 2nd viewing, and was meh again last night for the 3rd viewing.

Because star wars.

But you still went and saw it 3 times!

TFA is the only movie I have ever seen in theaters more than once and thats because I went with my family first and then my friends wanted to go see it.

Seeing a movie in theaters multiple times is just not something I normally do.

[killer_carlson]

If you're going to Star Wars for some life altering insight into the human condition, then, well, you're going to be disappointed.

[savardandjokinen]

Originally Posted by Max Cow Disease

I quite like III. I put it on a tier above I and II.

I think episode III is a good movie as well. Better than any of the sequel movies IMO

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

If you're going to Star Wars for some life altering insight into the human condition, then, well, you're going to be disappointed.

Space wizards and puppets = serious business.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

You are really emotionally committed to defending this thing, huh? And you didn't even like it. This is just strange.

I think you have me confused with someone else. I just said it doesn't suck because it is big budget and I never said I didn't like it. What an odd post.

[CaptainCrunch]

Well at least I can finally join this discussion, after a few delays I finally took my old man and my mom to see this movie as their Christmas gift from me and to carry on a tradition.

And Star Wars was all about tradition, but this movie continues to redefine the Star War Tradition and move it down a new track being created by Disney.

That's not a bad thing, its just a different thing and that's all right. To put it simply for the most part, as a movie goer I really liked this movie, it had a more human element that has been lacking since the Empire Strikes Back came out in 1980. If you can't separate this version of the Star Wars universe from the previous Lucas Generation, in my mind your doomed to probably dislike it a great deal.

From a visual point of view, this film is beautifully shot and framed. From Luke's Island Temple, to the scenes in space to the Casino scene everything looked in place and the attention to detail was served well.

With George Lucas, when he created the Star Wars universe though, he was extremely Lore driven, and he had to be, the old saying is that this was a universe that George created and we were welcome to visit it. From the history to the Jedi, to the rising of the Empire, to the Sith Rule of Two, to the Jedi order, everything had a place and a to the most extent logical backstory.

The new Star Wars, first started in TFA and now continuing in this film is about the here and now, there's no real reason to have a deep backstory. In otherwords from the extent of the Universe this is very much Star Wars light.

Where did the First Order come from? That question doesn't really need to be answered, they're the evil blackhats who's justification is based around bringing order to a galaxy in Chaos. We don't really need to see the machinations of its rise. If you want that, then buy the Aftermath series of books.

What's Hux's story, or Phasma's? Is it important, not really, they're there to be the foil to the virtuous Resistance and more importantly Rey.

What about Snoke? Where did he come from? Is he a Sith, or a clone or an omniscient Dark Side creation, and why does his head look like someone lit fire to his face and put it out with an axe? That doesn't matter, what matters is he's powerful enough to throw people around and connect Ren and Rey through the force as a bait to a juicy. At the end of the day, all that matters is he is the necessary sacrifice to Kylo's ascension to ultimate and possibly irredeemable evil. If Snoke had been in the least way force weak or not formidable, Kylo Ren's betrayal of him would have been meaningless.

Realistically the Lore of this story is reserved for the triangle of Luke, Rey and Ren. Most importantly the Lore was reserved for this.

As a Jedi, Luke was a failure and he freely admits it. Sure he had that one bright moment, when he redeemed his father, but looking back on that now, Luke had lost that fight, and Anakin pretty much redeemed himself by freeing himself from the chains of the Darkside for love. Luke at the end of the day was a poor Jedi, who always looked past the things right in front of him to the future, and that character flaw haunted him until the end.

From his founding of the Jedi Academy to train the next generation of Jedi and not acting to stop Ben Solo's fall to the dark side until the end, to living his greatest fear and creating another Vader. Luke's failures were plentiful, and instead of correcting his mistake he retreated and wanted to die which in effect was an admission of surrender and a willingness to leave the galaxy in the hands of darkness.

In the end when we saw Luke take action, it was an awesome display of power that in effect redeemed Luke, but not in terms of defeating the darkside, but in terms of igniting that spark of light to an ember by allowing what was left of the resistance to survive and maybe grow again.

For Rey her Lore was based around the duel question of "Who am I?" and "What am I going to be?". I suppose that a lot of fans were bitter that Rey's parentage whether its a lie of not was nothing. Her parents were anonymous junk dealers and the reveal in the dark cavern made sense, from a Disney Lore point of view, it was basically that this galaxy is not about the Skywalkers alone but that the Force can be everywhere, that was hammered home in the end with the young boy. At the same time, its clear that Rey has a strong affinity to the Force and her true temptation by the Dark Side is yet to come, and the question is, will she be wise enough to resist it when it offers the power to defeat Ren.

For Ren, we finally get the answer to the question, what if Anakin had betrayed Palpatine and taken over. For Ren, hes the representation of an Anakin without Jedi training and the emotional control of Vader. Kylo is probably not ready to lead the Empire, just like Vader could have never ruled the Empire. Kylo is too driven by his rage and anger, and lacks the charisma, patience and knowledge to be anything more then a murderous thug. In that way, Kylo is fairly two dimensional, he's a powerful force using, impulsive third world dictator.

But one thing is clear, Kylo hates his past and everything about it, and his only solution is to destroy the past, all of it, his parents, the resistance, his enslavement to Snoke and Like, all of which offer him only pain and rage, and to create a fresh start with him in charge.

If you look at it from the point of view of the Sith, Kylo became more Sith in a way then Snoke or Vader ever was.

Through Victory his chains are broken, the Force shall set me free. This is the final two lines of the Sith Code, and its understandable here. By killing Luke, and his parents and Snoke and the resistance, Ren will snap the chains of his emotional bondage and be free to be more then his grandfather was.

As for the rest of the characters. yeah the Poe storyline was ok, it was the cookie cutter story of the eager warrior becoming a better leader though emotional suffering. For Finn and Rose, they basically have become this generations version of Han and Chewie, the cavalier hero and his faithful sidekick.

For Leia. she became the emotional center of what's left of the Resistance, and in a sense is the Ben Kenobi in guiding the Resistance to its rebirth.

Overall I liked this movie, some of the humor fell flat, and the Casino storyline was maybe drawn out a bit.

The whole slow speed chase in space could have probably been better, if you look at the BattleStar Galactica episode where the Cylon's kept jumping after the Human survivors ever few hours was a better storyline. But it serves the Disney mandate in their movies of not thinking about things too much and enjoy the ride.

The fact that Phasma turned out to be a red shirt was disappointing as she basically showed up in this movie for 10 minutes to die, and nothing was done to establish her as a formidable foe, in the end she was just another storm trooper with pretty armor and did very little to elevate Finn like the death of Snoke elevated Ren.

Where would I place this movie in terms of quality, that's tough because again this is a departure from the George Lucas Star Wars Galaxy, the three films of the OT were all deeper films that might not have been as pretty. So I would say this is firmly wedge between the PT and OT trilogy in terms of quality.



Would I watch it again, well I have no choice, I'm going again on Saturday with a friend who wants to see it. But it just doesn't strike me as a movie that has a lot of rewatchability because of the lack of depth to the subject matter.

[calumniate]

That movie was laughably bad on all fronts. Cheaped out their sets even and ripped off their previous movies. Shameful, but not unexpected. They'll still enjoy their money faucet but let's be honest, this was brutal

[Lobotroth]

Star Wars was always an escape from reality with ultimately a commentary on the human condition. They touched on this with TLJ but the prevalence of a political agenda drew me out of that world. On the whole the movie is a message that SW needs to be sold to a new generation and us old fans need to "let the past die". I didn't enjoy this movie but I can appreciate its significance; it represents the beginning of a new age of film-making. ANH was a film landmark in the same way.

[Buff]

Originally Posted by calumniate

That movie was laughably bad on all fronts. Cheaped out their sets even and ripped off their previous movies. Shameful, but not unexpected. They'll still enjoy their money faucet but let's be honest, this was brutal

I will be honest. I have no clue what you are talking about. "That movie"? Are you referring to something else, because you couldn't be farther from the truth if you are referencing The Last Jedi.

[direwolf]

Originally Posted by calumniate

That movie was laughably bad on all fronts. Cheaped out their sets even and ripped off their previous movies. Shameful, but not unexpected. They'll still enjoy their money faucet but let's be honest, this was brutal

[Fuzz]

Thought it was a good enough movie, maybe a little long and some parts drawn out where others felt short and choppy. The whole Luke and Rey on the Island thing was a bit disjointed with all the cuts, maybe some more training and wisdom being passed down? It all felt very impersonal with zero chemistry.

I wish they'd just try to consciously leave old ideas behind though. The first 5 minutes felt like Empire, even the crawl led into it. Then you have Ren the apprentice bringing the young Jedi to see his master, then betray and kill him. Where did that happen before? hrmmm...It wasn't convincingly built up why Ren had the motivation to do that, either. Logically and emotionally, it didn't fit at all with his arc.

A lot of it was great, a lot mediocre. I did like that Rey is a no one. Trying to shoe horn her into the Skywalker legacy would have made the universe smaller. At least they have room for rando's to be strong with the force now going forward, that is a good thing. And I think they left Snoke as a one off so they can do a filler movie from between episode 6 and 7 where he gets his ass kicked at the end to explain his current look. Which is fine, I guess. Maybe he could have been used more in the future, but since we don't know where they take the story and if he would have had any value, I'm fine with him gone, being a "nobody".

I don't understand Leia, the whole space witch thing was goofy as hell. We know Carrie Fisher is dead, that would have been a great scene to have her exit stage left. She served no purpose for the rest of the movie, so now we know she is going to be a digital farce in the next episode. Baffling.

I didn't read this whole thread, so maybe this has already been talked to death.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Thought it was a good enough movie, maybe a little long and some parts drawn out where others felt short and choppy. The whole Luke and Rey on the Island thing was a bit disjointed with all the cuts, maybe some more training and wisdom being passed down? It all felt very impersonal with zero chemistry.

I wish they'd just try to consciously leave old ideas behind though. The first 5 minutes felt like Empire, even the crawl led into it. Then you have Ren the apprentice bringing the young Jedi to see his master, then betray and kill him. Where did that happen before? hrmmm...It wasn't convincingly built up why Ren had the motivation to do that, either. Logically and emotionally, it didn't fit at all with his arc.

A lot of it was great, a lot mediocre. I did like that Rey is a no one. Trying to shoe horn her into the Skywalker legacy would have made the universe smaller. At least they have room for rando's to be strong with the force now going forward, that is a good thing. And I think they left Snoke as a one off so they can do a filler movie from between episode 6 and 7 where he gets his ass kicked at the end to explain his current look. Which is fine, I guess. Maybe he could have been used more in the future, but since we don't know where they take the story and if he would have had any value, I'm fine with him gone, being a "nobody".

I don't understand Leia, the whole space witch thing was goofy as hell. We know Carrie Fisher is dead, that would have been a great scene to have her exit stage left. She served no purpose for the rest of the movie, so now we know she is going to be a digital farce in the next episode. Baffling.

I didn't read this whole thread, so maybe this has already been talked to death.

I think that Snoke is done for, I don't really think that they need to or would want to do anything with him except maybe in books. The only point in Snoke was to build him up as a uber powerful force user and then sacrifice him to Ren's ambitions.

As far as those ambitions go, thinking about what he was thinking it makes sense. I mean he felt betrayed by Luke, which probably added to him being betrayed by his parents who sent him to Luke. Snoke probably filled his head with the greatness of his grandfather and the dark side of the force. So its logical that everything he does is to get rid of the things that keep him from the darkness, Snoke realistically would keep him from it by making him his apprentice and his slave.

Killing Snoke was like his ascension to to his desire to be dark.

I did cringe at the Leia flying back to the ship to be honest, but it didn't truly bother me all that much, and she acted almost like the calming center of the resistance though the rest of the movie.

I would assume a few things.

We won't see Snoke again unless there's a flashback.

I assume that we'll see the half dozen jedi students that Ren took from the Academy in the next movie, the knights of Ren will take part in the next film.

Luke might have a brief cameo, however part of me thinks that he's served his purpose but I don't think that Mark Hamill will have a major part in the next film and Rey's course will be her own, that's why they emphasized the Jedi Text so much.

The next movie will take place a couple of years down the road, after the death of Leia and probably Chewie takes place. There just doesn't seem to be anything left in their journey, and having Leia die a violent death would be too jarring. Also I can't see them doing a CGI Fisher.

Kylo might be the head of the First Order, but Hux will betray Ren at some point in the next movie.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I assume that we'll see the half dozen jedi students that Ren took from the Academy in the next movie, the knights of Ren will take part in the next film.

Weren't those all the red dudes they slaughtered?

[blankall]

If these new movies are meant to start fresh, why do they constantly repeat the originals? Did we need another Both scene... But with salt. In case anyone missed that, it was salt and not snow this time. The guy specifically said it was salt. Apparently it's also customary to put random chemicals in your mouth on strange planets too.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Weren't those all the red dudes they slaughtered?

Those were Snoke's royal guard. Don't appear to be the same as Knights of Ren who Kylo leads. We didn't see them in this movie, probably because I'm not convinced that Rian Johnson actually saw TFA or any Star Wars movie and didn't know they existed.

[Weitz]

Boring movie. Waste of time if you ask me.

Almost fell asleep towards the end.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Weren't those all the red dudes they slaughtered?

Nope they were just Imperial Guards, kind of like the guys in ROTJ that you always wondered what they could do.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by blankall

If these new movies are meant to start fresh, why do they constantly repeat the originals? Did we need another Both scene... But with salt. In case anyone missed that, it was salt and not snow this time. The guy specifically said it was salt. Apparently it's also customary to put random chemicals in your mouth on strange planets too.

I think that's the biggest problem right now is that these movies feel like they're trying to do a reboot of the originals while extending the stories of the original.'

They are basically too familiar and they are using the frame work too closely

TFA - Death Star with a vulnerability, except this vulnerability is about a km wide, its also bigger and badder. There were some nice original story elements in it but the underlying threat was too close.

TLJ - Hopelessness of the resistance/rebellion, that get basically pounded by the Empire/First Order. There is a massive land battle in both movies using walkers and its salt versus snow. There is also a massive fleet chasing the good guys who can't go to light speed in this case not because of mechanical failures but because of a sensor. They just reversed the order of events

ESB - Vader chokes underling to death remotely, massive battle, hopeless chase, fortunate escape, hero's gather in the end and to reflect on friends lost in Han Solo and to rebuild the resistance.

TLJ - Battle , Snoke beats up underling remotely, hopeless chase, massive battle, fortunate escape, hero's gather in the end to reflect on friends lost and to rebuild the resistance.

Again I believe we are doomed no matter which way we go now.

ROTJ - Super weapon exposed, hero's rescue, rebellion gathers together, desperate battle, hero goes off on lone quest, redeems villain, kills other villain. Super weapon destroyed, hero's gather to celebrate while hero mouns loss of redeemed villain, native species of planet eats stormtroopers.


Star Wars - the next movie - Another super weapon, hero's rescue (Finn or Poe gets caught and gets rescued. Desperate battle. Rey goes off to face Ren alone, Redeems/kills Ren, super weapon destroyed, hero's gather to celebrate while hero mourns the loss of redeemed or un redeemed villain, Porgues eat Stormtroopers.