Definitely a valid question as to whether or not this new Empire tech is here to stay. Does this mean they can track any ship at any time? And multiple ships at that?
But the writers have some easy outs. They can say that it only works once they pick up the hyperspace signature meaning they'd have to be there when the rebel ships jumps to hyperspace. Or they could say the tech was destroyed on Snoke's ship (although they seemed to indicate it could be moved to another ship when they concocted their heist plan).
Or perhaps the 3rd movie will revolve around them needing to destroy this tech. Although I think it is less of a specific technology and more of a technique meaning that now that the empire has the formula, they've got it forever.
I think it just raises the stakes for the rebels to stay on the run.
Or a 'hyperspace cloak' gets invented and we never hear about hyperspace tracking again.
I don't mind how Luke died, I thought there was a quiet dignity to it and a nice demonstration of the his renewed connection to the force. But I did mind the timing of Luke's death. Rian just dumped out the bathwater of a storyline on book 8 of 9. Maybe there were more Leia plans for episode 9 to continue the Skywalker story, but even with Kylo, he is secondary to Rey. That's what I disliked the most, it doesn't fit in the Skywalker saga as an 8th movie.
I'm going to disagree. The redemption of Ben Solo is the sky walker saga. I disagree that this movie makes Rey the lead over Kylo. Kylo's Arc is the main story. The only real issue is the Force Awakens screwed up the Lore with the light sabre flash back.
If Fisher doesn't die Leia would redeem Kylo in the last movie. Then Luke ensuring that Kylo didn't kill him and galvanizing him on the dark side is Luke last gift.
Having done all he can do for Kylo and making peace with his relationship to the force he evaporates to join Yoda and Obi Wan.
Definitely a valid question as to whether or not this new Empire tech is here to stay. Does this mean they can track any ship at any time? And multiple ships at that?
But the writers have some easy outs. They can say that it only works once they pick up the hyperspace signature meaning they'd have to be there when the rebel ships jumps to hyperspace. Or they could say the tech was destroyed on Snoke's ship (although they seemed to indicate it could be moved to another ship when they concocted their heist plan).
Or perhaps the 3rd movie will revolve around them needing to destroy this tech. Although I think it is less of a specific technology and more of a technique meaning that now that the empire has the formula, they've got it forever.
I think it just raises the stakes for the rebels to stay on the run.
That was already clarified in the movie. The whole point of the second ship couldn't just track them and they had 6 minutes to escape. It's pretty clear from that you need to track the exit vector to follow them
They did an injustice to Luke's character. You may not like it, but episodes 1 to 9 are about the Skywalkers. Luke should have died in episode 9 in the most epic way in cinema history.
There are lots of problems with this movie, but this is the biggest one. Such a wasted opportunity. Killing Han Solo at the blade of his own son was a plot point that can deliver going forward, in that it sets up a story. Killing Luke makes no sense, so far.
Given all the resolved plot points, its like there are just a few remaining issues for episode 9 other than to, have an episode 9, to allow the resistance to succeed.
One thing I wonder about is that if Luke was a projection on Crait, how do the dice he took from the Falcon physically end up in the Rebel bunker to be picked up by Kylo?
One thing I wonder about is that if Luke was a projection on Crait, how do the dice he took from the Falcon physically end up in the Rebel bunker to be picked up by Kylo?
Didn't they disappear from Kylo's hand after a few minutes?
That was already clarified in the movie. The whole point of the second ship couldn't just track them and they had 6 minutes to escape. It's pretty clear from that you need to track the exit vector to follow them
Well the second ship could track them, that was explicitly stated.
However they mentioned that during the 6 minute refresh cycle they could get away without the empire ships noticing that their tracking was gone. This suggests that the empire ships must be within close range of the jump to hyperspace in order for the tracking to work but they didn't explain the exact nature of the tracking with any specifics. Which is exactly why I said they might include that in my response to the post I quoted.
Just to elaborate a bit here. They said that if they blew up the tracking ship then another ship would just start tracking them. But if they flew away while the tracking was disabled then presumably that means the warp signature would be lost and that means the link couldn't be re-established by the main ship or any other ship. So it probably is pretty much confirmed that proximity is necessary for the tracking to work.
Last edited by Cecil Terwilliger; 12-19-2017 at 12:21 PM.
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They did an injustice to Luke's character. You may not like it, but episodes 1 to 9 are about the Skywalkers. Luke should have died in episode 9 in the most epic way in cinema history. I'm sad and disappointed.
Well... I agree and disagree.
I agree that Luke should have had a more epic end (Take the last scene and have him actually be there so we can get one more Skywalker lightsaber duel).
I also agree that epiodes 1-9 is the Skywalker Family Drama. Ben Solo is a Skywalker so even without the trio it's still the Skywalker drama. 10-12 will be the new drama.
I disagree that Luke should have died in episode 9, that would have been fine but it was also fine for him to die in 8. He'll be back (as a force ghost) in episode 9 (I assume) and clearly they intended for Leia to die in the finale (and she still might depending on whether they have any footage on the cutting room floor that they can use to explain her absence) but the tragedy of Carrie Fisher's death will change that. If I could for a moment heap some praise on her. She was clearly the original cast member most invested in 7-9 good performances from her (and how fortunate that she got to perform alongside her daughter).
Luke should have been dead the whole time. Now that would have been a great twist.
She shows up to the island and there's a heavily decayed body/skeleton on the ground in one of the huts with a belt around its neck and a lemon peel on the floor.
EDIT: scratch that. Then people would have complained that it would have made more sense for luke to force choke himself instead of using a belt.
Well the second ship could track them, that was explicitly stated.
However they mentioned that during the 6 minute refresh cycle they could get away without the empire ships noticing that their tracking was gone. This suggests that the empire ships must be within close range of the jump to hyperspace in order for the tracking to work but they didn't explain the exact nature of the tracking with any specifics. Which is exactly why I said they might include that in my response to the post I quoted.
Just to elaborate a bit here. They said that if they blew up the tracking ship then another ship would just start tracking them. But if they flew away while the tracking was disabled then presumably that means the warp signature would be lost and that means the link couldn't be re-established by the main ship or any other ship. So it probably is pretty much confirmed that proximity is necessary for the tracking to work.
I'm wondering if that was the case, though. That's what they said in the movie, but the Wookieepedia entry on the Supremacy seems to make it sound like it was only Snokes ship that had the processing power to hyperspace track:
Quote:
The Supremacy was able to track its targets through hyperspace using a combination of technological advances and brute-force data crunching. The Shipboard Tracking Control Complex boasted the data-shifting power of a planetary intel hub, linking its huge computer arrays to data banks loaded with centuries of combat reports and astrogation data. A static hyperspace field generated around the machines then accelerated their processing power to unheard-of levels. A target's last known trajectory yielded trillions of potential destinations, but the system could assess them with terrifying speed. This capability of tracking ships via hyperspace routes had its roots from the Tarkin Initiative.
Saw it last night and after sleeping on it I'm definitely feeling more disappointment than excitement.
Most of my complaints have been covered in here thoroughly so won't go into them, but wanted to also mention how poor I felt the comedic timing was.
2 scenes in particular made me cringe. Leia and Luke first meeting and her joking about her new hair style and then the dirt of your shoulders Luke-Z moment.
They're seeing each other for the first time in how many years? Fans are seeing them on screen together for the first time in 30 years!
Luke is highly regretful about failing Ben and allowing him to become the new ultimate evil in the universe; Leia is Ben's mom and should have been very emotional about all of this and that moment could have been very powerful.
Comedy has always been an important part of the Star Wars universe, but those felt so out of place and really took me out of the emotion of each scene. Particularly because both should have been emotionally charged, nostalgic moments for fans and they were reduced to slapstick jabs that were out of place.
Imagine Luke making a hair joke when taking off Vader/Anakin's mask in ROTJ.
Many moments in the movie felt like they were trying to intentionally lighten the tension instead of using tension and depth for emotion.
My overriding complaint of the movie, is that the directing took that approach at almost every moment and never wanted to go darker or deeper.
They danced around it a lot with Rey, but avoided any real conflict or tragedy.
Similar to the prequels, this resulted in a fun but pretty meaningless movie which was difficult to connect to with any emotion.
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I dunno if we really should have expected Rey to have a light/dark conflict. we get to know her as a good person from the start, and there's never even a hint of lust for power. same thing with Luke, the only time he lashed out was when Vader threatened Leia, and he immediately regretted it. the Emperor didn't really have anything to tempt Luke with, and neither did Snoke who didn't even try. he just ragdolled her for fifteen minutes until he got bored and ordered her execution.
Anakin is the one guy who had reason to switch sides, though how it played out was ridiculously clumsy.
So thinking about it more, I realize that part of the reason that I really want to love this film but can't quite get myself to that point is because it's kinda trying, but failing, to be one of my favorite action/adventure subgenres, which is the 'ship genre'. I may have posted this here on CP about how Fury Road is the greatest 'ship genre' of recent years. Star Trek films often fit it (certainly the first two of the reboots), BSG, even, occasionally, literal ships like Master and Commander.
The part that happens onboard the Raddus definitely constitutes this genre. It's got a lot of the classic themes:
the ship represents life surrounded by almost certain death
the actual physical act of keeping running of the ship is vital, and we're let into the details of this.
leadership, loyalty, command, trust, mutiny, chain of command are the primary character and relationship themes.
There's an inverted relationship to movement and tension: unlike typical chase sequences where tension seems to rise as speed increases, in a ship movie, tension is highest when the ship is slow or stopped (Fury Road does this masterfully, and any time the Enterprise is disabled and dead-in-the-water also fits).
Abandoning the ship, and/or sacrificing the ship are both important plot points.
There's also some bonus-point things like the ship vs. a natural storm, again, see FR or M&C, but these are less important and not always practical in a space version.
Done right, the ship movie is an absolute pressure-cooker of action and character-driven tension. And there's a bunch of things TLJ does right. Certainly it uses some of those themes of loyalty/mutiny, there's more attention to the actual running of the ship (dwindling fuel) then we're often used to in the Star Wars universe, and there's a tension of keeping the ship going.
But I think it fails on a few key elements that could have improved the movie:
1. The literal movement is very flat, resulting in no ups and downs of tension, at least as far as the Raddus is concerned. There's just this 18 hours of running at the same speed with dwindling fuel. But since we know that at the beginning of the chase, tension doesn't actually increase. In a good ship movie, there's more of a 'tug-o-war' between ships. In BSG, there was this sense of relief after every jump, but then the tension immediately starts rising again. Mad Max had the chasers constantly getting closer, and then the War Rig pulling away, and there was a constant up and down in tension. We could have done with a lot more fires to put out (ah! problem with the shield generator! surprise tie-fighter attack! etc.) Instead, we were relying on Finn and Rose's story to provide ups and downs in tension.
2. The ease with which Finn and Rose are able to leave acts as a relief valve on the pressure cooker and entirely deflates the tension. Keep all of those characters in close proximity to the ship (and/or the chasing ship), and everything is tighter, more tense. Certainly, almost every plot point that their story hits could have been done within the ships, they didn't need to go off to a totally different world.
3. Those loyalty/leadership/mutiny themes were explored, but only through Poe. I think it would have been better to get into Holdo more, maybe a bit of self-doubt on her side, and her learning to trust Poe and find a use for him. I would have liked to appreciate her self-sacrifice more; it was a really cool moment but not emotionally deep, but if we got to know her more, it could have been both.
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So thinking about it more, I realize that part of the reason that I really want to love this film but can't quite get myself to that point is because it's kinda trying, but failing, to be one of my favorite action/adventure subgenres, which is the 'ship genre'. I may have posted this here on CP about how Fury Road is the greatest 'ship genre' of recent years. Star Trek films often fit it (certainly the first two of the reboots), BSG, even, occasionally, literal ships like Master and Commander.
Really interesting post, I'd never really thought about it. I seem to really enjoy a lot of these types of movies as well (big Trek fan and Fury Road is one of my favorite movies overall too).
It was so underwhelming and average. The Finn stuff was all pretty pointless too when you stop to think about it. Didnt change any outcomes. I didnt hate it though. I hear the nerds are losing their minds right now. I'm still looking forward to the next one.
Finally got to see this today. I really, really enjoyed it. I was genuinely surprised by some of the plot developments, and was fully invested in the ride. My only minor quibble was the side trip to casino planet and the Oliver Twist waifs there - I didn't mind how the wealth of the planet and Benico's character injected a little grey into the good vs. evil thing, but the detour just seemed to drag things down a bit.
9/10
Now I'm going to read this thread and figure out what I'm wrong about.
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Ok, so I'll elaborate with more thoughts in my next post, but I've returned from viewing #2 and my first instinct is that my view of the movie has improved quite a bit. It's weird.
It was so underwhelming and average. The Finn stuff was all pretty pointless too when you stop to think about it. Didnt change any outcomes. I didnt hate it though. I hear the nerds are losing their minds right now. I'm still looking forward to the next one.
I didn’t mind that actually. It showed that no all epic quests end in success. I kind of appreciated that it didn’t have the stereotypical payoff. Bravado isn’t always rewarded. But i guess I was a little bothered that they didn’t just tell Poe the actual plan.
