Arena negotiation discussion. UPD: Flames release their proposal

[Boreal]

Why is this made out to be an all or nothing debate? Either 100% Private or publicly funded? Worse is people actually even discussing this nonsense giving it any sense of credibility.

Clearly, there is a middle ground that can be found. The topic is far more complex than emotionally potent simpleton Eric Francis portrays. However finding middle ground is tough, but as Nenshi has stated previously, it's supposed to be tough.

Who wants a politician who doubles over and grifts billionaires whatever they want, besides the billionaires of course?

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Lord Carnage

I have a hard time going back and forth with you... the point we talk about keeps moving.

I asked a question directly related to what you posted. I’m not sure how I can make it any easier for you to discuss.

Professional sports is not linear to other businesses. I'm sorry you don't like that, but it's still a reality. I'm sure some concessions/offers were made to try and lure Amazon here, but again, it isn't a parallel to professional sports, so not relevant. So no, I can't come up with an example to something that doesn't exist.

What’s this I don’t like about the professional sports business? Perhaps you should stick to expressing your own views as opposed to making up unfounded ones for other people.

Whether they have made anything comparable to a non-comparable industry just isn't relevant. Looking at this issue as it needs to be - unique - the city has made an offer it believes is 'fair', but not even their spokesmen are saying "very generous"

But see you’re the one calling someone out over their opinion that the offer is generous, yet you have no comparables to make your case for why it isn’t generous and follow it up by insinuating that no one has or would consider it generous.

Ken Campbell calls it generous
http://www.thehockeynews.com/news/ar...-calgary-mayor

If you really need for Nenshi to specifically use the word generous to describe it maybe contact his office and ask if he believes it’s a generous offer.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Roughneck

The Flames' offer was the 50/50 offer where most of their 50% was the ticket tax, because that's theirs, while the city considered it a user pay portion.

That aside, the Flames want the city to own it (thus be responsible for it at the end of the lifecycle and all the property taxes) and have their construction contribution act as their lease payment for 100% of revenues.

Don't forget the laundry list of other goodies the flames wanted on their 100% revenue rights free rent arena...

1: A slice of the Stampedes Parking and Casino Revenue
2: Veto over district development
3: Municiple Property Tax exemption on anything they own in the district
4: Reimbursement on Provincial Property tax
5: Free Public Transit on game nights
6: City covering security costs
7: City covering flood insurance
8: City paid demolition of the Saddledome AKA a monopoly on large event hosting

[Lord Carnage]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

What’s this I don’t like about the professional sports business? Perhaps you should stick to expressing your own views as opposed to making up unfounded ones for other people.

All I said was that you didn't like that it was different from other businesses. It certainly was an assumption, but if you were OK with that, you wouldn't be asking for a parallel between a sports franchise and other local businesses... right?

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

But see you’re the one calling someone out over their opinion that the offer is generous, yet you have no comparables to make your case for why it isn’t generous and follow it up by insinuating that no one has or would consider it generous.

Ken Campbell calls it generous
http://www.thehockeynews.com/news/ar...-calgary-mayor

If you really need for Nenshi to specifically use the word generous to describe it maybe contact his office and ask if he believes it’s a generous offer.

You're exact quote was, "Do you have any comparable examples of better offers our city council has given to other local businesses?" My point is that if you can't compare sports and 'Sears', and there are no other major sports in Calgary, then the thing you are asking me to generate is impossible.

As to Ken Campbell, you're right, he did use the word "generous". Great - so Tinordi is the second person who had the cajones to call the offer generous. Does that make you feel better?

Note: truth be told, I'm impressed you were able to find an article that did that so fast... kudos for that

[CroFlames]

Even if they come to an agreement and hold hands and become friends, what happens with the football stadium?

It'll just decay and age and one day the Stamps disappear?

[CorbeauNoir]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

So will those teams be moving to Houston as well?

Are those teams in cities with anything close to the kind of economic trouble Calgary is in?

I guess the exodus of our municipal corporate backbone, never to return, is all part of the master plan to provide ungodly amounts of vacant office space for Amazon's HQ2 rubber-stamp that's totally coming our way. Or something.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Lord Carnage

All I said was that you didn't like that it was different from other businesses. It certainly was an assumption, but if you were OK with that, you wouldn't be asking for a parallel between a sports franchise and other local businesses... right?

The linearity between the business of professional sports compared to other businesses is completely irrelevant to what I’m asking. I’m asking for any example where the city has helped a private corporation by using public funds which would be considered(or even just argued) as more generous than their current offer which you are trying to argue is not generous.

You're exact quote was, "Do you have any comparable examples of better offers our city council has given to other local businesses?" My point is that if you can't compare sports and 'Sears', and there are no other major sports in Calgary, then the thing you are asking me to generate is impossible.

I think the issue is that you can’t(or don’t want to) make a comparison, not that it’s impossible to do so.

As to Ken Campbell, you're right, he did use the word "generous". Great - so Tinordi is the second person who had the cajones to call the offer generous. Does that make you feel better?

I was hoping it would make you feel better since you were getting a little bent out of shape over the use of the word.

Note: truth be told, I'm impressed you were able to find an article that did that so fast... kudos for that

It took about 10 seconds with google. Probably less time than it took you to type your original post stating how no one has ever called the offer generous before Tinordi.

[Lord Carnage]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

The linearity between the business of professional sports compared to other businesses is completely irrelevant to what I’m asking. I’m asking for any example where the city has helped a private corporation by using public funds which would be considered(or even just argued) as more generous than their current offer which you are trying to argue is not generous.

I think the issue is that you can’t(or don’t want to) make a comparison, not that it’s impossible to do so.

I was hoping it would make you feel better since you were getting a little bent out of shape over the use of the word.

It took about 10 seconds with google. Probably less time than it took you to type your original post stating how no one has ever called the offer generous before Tinordi.

I wasn't getting bent out of shape on the word generous, I just felt it was making a bit of a leap to use the word generous when discussing the city's offer... and when talking about using the word generous, I was more thinking of posters on this forum... you went outside that, but found something quick, so even though not what I was talking about, it deserved props.

To the other discussion points, no, I can't make a comparison because I truly believe that professional sports is not a parallel business to your standard business. As I believe they are not parallel, the comparison you want me to find in Calgary doesn't exist.

That was the other reason that I suggested you didn't like that sports is a different business than a standard company (though you didn't like that I made the assumption).

Anyway, clearly one of the key differences to our points of view...

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Don't forget the laundry list of other goodies the flames wanted on their 100% revenue rights free rent arena...

1: A slice of the Stampedes Parking and Casino Revenue
2: Veto over district development
3: Municiple Property Tax exemption on anything they own in the district
4: Reimbursement on Provincial Property tax
5: Free Public Transit on game nights
6: City covering security costs
7: City covering flood insurance
8: City paid demolition of the Saddledome AKA a monopoly on large event hosting

works well for esks games. free transit two hours before game time until two hours after the game is over. just show your ticket.

for the flames, the city shouldn't be forced to cover all of that, but it's a great idea to get some of the drunks off the road and lessen traffic in the area.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Lord Carnage

I wasn't getting bent out of shape on the word generous, I just felt it was making a bit of a leap to use the word generous when discussing the city's offer... and when talking about using the word generous, I was more thinking of posters on this forum... you went outside that, but found something quick, so even though not what I was talking about, it deserved props.

To the other discussion points, no, I can't make a comparison because I truly believe that professional sports is not a parallel business to your standard business. As I believe they are not parallel, the comparison you want me to find in Calgary doesn't exist.

That was the other reason that I suggested you didn't like that sports is a different business than a standard company (though you didn't like that I made the assumption).

Anyway, clearly one of the key differences to our points of view...

What in your view makes professional sports so different from other businesses? I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’m just curious as to what makes you believe it is impossible to make any comparison between them?

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by nobles_point

Who wants a politician who doubles over and grifts billionaires whatever they want, besides the billionaires of course?

People who believe in trickle-down-economics.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by GordonBlue

works well for esks games. free transit two hours before game time until two hours after the game is over. just show your ticket.

for the flames, the city shouldn't be forced to cover all of that, but it's a great idea to get some of the drunks off the road and lessen traffic in the area.

It still comes at a cost to the city which I believe was the point that Parallex was trying to make.

[Tyler]

Let's also not forget, Transit was on the cusp of cuts to service hours because they're not meeting targets and not getting the revenue they need from customers.

Throwing in free transit on top of all the other concessions CSEC is demanding is just silly. I can see why this was a non-starter.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Tyler

Let's also not forget, Transit was on the cusp of cuts to service hours because they're not meeting targets and not getting the revenue they need from customers.

Throwing in free transit on top of all the other concessions CSEC is demanding is just silly. I can see why this was a non-starter.

Calgary transit can just increase their usage fees though. Have you even considered that maybe the flames need that money more than calgary transit users?

[Flamenspiel]

nm

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by CorbeauNoir

Are those teams in cities with anything close to the kind of economic trouble Calgary is in?

I guess the exodus of our municipal corporate backbone, never to return, is all part of the master plan to provide ungodly amounts of vacant office space for Amazon's HQ2 rubber-stamp that's totally coming our way. Or something.

Hmmm...

if the sky is following on the corporate backbone of Calgary, we shouldn't be paying for a new rink...

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Don't forget the laundry list of other goodies the flames wanted on their 100% revenue rights free rent arena...

1: A slice of the Stampedes Parking and Casino Revenue
2: Veto over district development
3: Municiple Property Tax exemption on anything they own in the district
4: Reimbursement on Provincial Property tax
5: Free Public Transit on game nights
6: City covering security costs
7: City covering flood insurance
8: City paid demolition of the Saddledome AKA a monopoly on large event hosting

CMLC should be the developer of this and absolutely NOT CSEC.

If CSEC develops this we will get Landsdowne or Ice District 2.0. Petsmarts, Movie theatres, Milestones, Joeys, bestbuys for all! Maybe if we're luck a BP's and Tony Romas. NO THANKS.

This should be created to have a east village, gastown or yaletown like vibe. A place where people want to go because it's cool and the arena just happens to be there. Not a place where suburbanites can feel right at home for a night on the town.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

If CSEC develops this we will get Landsdowne or Ice District 2.0. Petsmarts, Movie theatres, Milestones, Joeys, bestbuys for all! Maybe if we're luck a BP's and Tony Romas. NO THANKS.

This is based on what exactly? Please, tell me where else CSEC has done a major property development and turned it into a massive strip mall.

[Cappy]

Not sure this was posted yet, but Kent Wilson has a response to Francis on his column.

Free on the Athletic for the time being:

https://theathletic.com/182400/2017/...oking-houston/

Thankfully, Francis' incessant one liners makes it the perfect piece to rebut.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

This is based on what exactly? Please, tell me where else CSEC has done a major property development and turned it into a massive strip mall.

For a development this important to the city, i wouldn't want to find out.

But you have to look at the motivations here. What do the Flames want in the area vs what the city would want.