What to do with T.J. Brodie...

[BigBrodieFan]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

I don’t think I have seen Brodie being defiant about anything. He seems like a composed, sensible young man.

I see that in support of this comment, you linked to a stat set for D by TOI, and so I looked at the top 20.

Karlsson, Ekman-Larson and Letang have worse plus minus

And again these are his peers in the top 20 group of TOI D men in a 30 team league. Out if this group of 20, only 9 have more points.

Speaking of points, I have no idea what yours is.

[Stay Golden]

A sensible coach would reunite a D tandem that worked so well before he arrived that had all the NHL talking about their natural chemistry. Gio and Brodie was mentioned in the same conversation as Seabrook and Keith.

What's the common saying, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
Yup that's our captain Gully on his sinking ship.

[GioforPM]

Responding in bold.

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

This is a situation where a lot of things are cascading. LHD/RHD is part of the problem, but no one is saying it is exclusively the problem:

- No true Top 4 defense partner who can both defend with early AND move the puck cleanly without forcing the puck to Brodie's side:\
Wideman
Hamonic
Stone
Engelland


The best player out of this group is Travis Hamonic, and he's a decent #5 defenseman at this point in his career (whether it was injuries, the evolution of the league, or earlier fluke seasons, he's not the player he was a few years ago). He is a turnover machine with brutal gap control most nights. Teams attack his half of the ice, they dump it on him and beat him to the puck, and the rare times he wins that race, he either throws it up the wall to the other team or to Brodie who is already covered by forecheckers. The rare nights where Hamonic simply manages his gaps, Brodie-Hamonic are our best pair. I wonder why.

You are both oversimplifying and forgiving Brodie for making the mental mistakes that lead to Hamonic making bad decisions. I frankly disagree with your unsupported assertion that oppoising teams attack Hamonic's side more.
I see them skating to Brodie's side, because he has difficulty turning and gets walked a lot, and if they dump it, he's the more likely to lose a puck battle. The statement "he's not the player he was a few years ago applies even more to Brodie.

-Smith's puck moving and Brodie, our most finesse defenseman (which is NOT inherently a bad thing), struggling with the situations that puts him in as he ends up getting pucks in a stationary position rather than on the move if he were just swinging behind the net.

- Brodie's preferred side:
Brodie's preferred shot is a slap shot, which works better on the right
Brodie's preferred pass is on his backhand, which works more often on the right
Brodie's stickwork and angling was most-refined playing on the right side. He has better stick and body positioning on that side of the ice. However he's not a sieve on the left side, despite his struggles in the last couple weeks (emphasis on weeks).

Brodie being in bad positions is usually on Brodie, not Hamonic. Bad pinches, bad turns, poor coverage. Hamonic's failing is that he hasn't anticipated Brodie's play very well.

- A system that discourages defensemen from carrying the puck individually or using the middle of the ice, opting for short area passes to wingers along the walls, which results in Brodie simply not using his best assets (skating, stretch passing)

GG's system uses the middle of the ice. Just not a deep pass to the middle - a pass to the middle juts before or after the blue line. He definitely does not discourage an initial carry of the puck by the D where it's there. Poor passing to the initial winger along the mid boards isn't one of the problems I generally see with Brodie - it's corner work, defensive play when being attacked with speed, and poor (usually ill-advised) passes to the middle

- Further to that system, it discourages defensemen from making offensive zone plays out of the cycle. Know that set play that Hamilton thrives off of? He takes a pass to the point along the walls and does nothing but shoot it on net, regardless of traffic, regardless of how dangerous that point shot is? That is the extent our offensive zone utilization of defensemen. That doesn't work for a guy like TJ Brodie whose skillset is not exclusively consisting of "stationary point shots" (and most would agree that's the weakest aspect of his arsenel). That's not how he was one of the most dominant offensive 5v5 defensemen in 2015-16 (3rd best P/60 @ 5-on-5 in 2016 behind only Burns and Karlsson). Let me put it like this, here's a play from the 2014-15 season, in which a few players, Byron, Russell, Wideman, Monahan, Hudler all touched the puck.

https://streamable.com/s/36u46/eqjdec

Watch the movement of our defensemen, whether Brodie, Wideman, or Russell. That's how you take advantage of TJ Brodie's ability. And Mark Giordano's ability. And Brett Kulak's ability. And even Travis Hamonic's ability, despite his flaws. Contrast that to how Gulutzan wants them to play... stationary, uninvolved, 3 on 5 hockey. That's not on the players. That's why our only dangerous offensive defensemen in this system are Stone and Hamilton... that's just fundamentally wrong. Our system should not be catering to two defensemen while the rest suffer. That's exactly what Brent Sutter did with Jay Bouwmeester. And then Bouwmeester was good again after he left us.

- Luck. As crazy as this sounds, that is part of the issue. Confidence, bounces, focus, whatever you want to call it, this stuff wavers over an 82 game season. Even Alex Ovechkin had a season where he was a -35. Last year Brodie had stretches of awful luck and stretches of dominance. He was our best defenseman in the playoffs, despite all of the above.

- Brodie's preferred pass. Brodie loves to sweep the puck cross-ice to his partner for a one-timer from the blue line (or use his puck skills and skating to smoothly switch sides with his partner for a one-timer from the circle). It set up Giordano perfectly. It set up Stone perfectly. It doesn't work with Hamonic because Hamonic can't shoot as well as Giordano and Stone. And in Giordano's case, Hamilton doesn't set him up much, so he doesn't shoot much anymore either, at least not dangerously.

That all may be, but my concern is not Brodie's offence. Or Hamonic's for that matter. That said, I don't think GG's offensive "system" prevents Brodie from moving in, drawing defencemen and making a pass to his partner or a forward. It just doesn't. What is preventing that is Brodie.



If Brodie is the best skater and best passer of the D corps, it stands to reason that he's the best skater and passer on his defense pair, and he is the one who handles the puck more often in the defensive zone. Why would you not want the best skater on the pair, the guy most likely to be making the breakout pass or skating the puck out of trouble, to be on the side that most benefits him?

I assume the guy that has the most skill, skating and passing ability in particular, to be the best able to not only handle an adjustment to the opposite side, but use it to its natural advantage. Hamomic would not handle the change well. Stone might do better, but I doubt it.

Stone and Hamonic are, for the most part, simple players. They shovel the puck towards the walls hoping it bounces out of the zone. This is a gfroos overstatement.You can do that on your off-side or strong side because it's not a play where you have to use your full skillset and vision. Simply incorrect, and not what those players try to do at all.



While we're at it, let's trade Gaudreau so we can build a team around size, because we want Darryl Sutter to come here and he's never had success with small players. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying if Treliving is building a team based on the proven analytics of RL defencemen, and if Brodie is not able to deal with that system, he is better off being moved, and the Flames can get a good asset for him (he still has decent value IMO)

And "everyone's benefit"? That's such a hyperbolic claim. At absolute worst (right now) he's still the third best defenseman on this team and at best he's the best defenseman in this entire division He is not and never will be close to the best defenceman in the division, and at his worst, he's not the third best defenceman on the Flames because his mistakes seem to be catastrophic ones. You don't trade that for "everyone's benefit". You trade that because you're mad that he's in a slump. Nope, not mad at all. I like Brodie. I'm not sure this is a slump though. The team's system has to fit its best players, and the secondary players have to be able to play that system. IMO Brodie isn't a key player on the team - his skill set isn't suited to being a mainstay on defence in all situations, so he can't be a top pairing guy (unless he's playing with a Norris calibre player like Gio)

The problem under Hartley was that the system fit the best players, but the secondary players were simply inept playing that system. The problem was that Hartley wasn't that good of a coach, as demonstrated by the fact that no one will hire him. The solution at that time was to replace scrubs like Bollig, Engelland with guys who fit better with the style that Hartley wanted to play. And we might have the roster now to do it. But instead we have brought in a coach who wants the team to play like a team that they are not. It's Giordano too, not just Brodie, that isn't himself. Mark Giordano is not himself, not the guy who was probably the best D in the league for a couple straight years at both ends. He's the 2nd pairing shutdown defenseman that Brent Sutter turned him into. And Gulutzan is trying to "JayBo" Brodie. Gio is having a very strong season - he's a bright spot IMO

The problem, at its core is Brent Sutter. Or whatever his current name is. Glen Gultuzan.

The problem at its core is that Brodie simply hasn't played well this season,
and most of last season. I'm rooting for him to find another level, but I think that playing with Gio gave him more room for errors that were always there. This has probably affected his confidence, as you say.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Jimdon

A 6'4" pylon who has some of the best underlying numbers in the league.Hes 24 years old and has 3 40 plus point seasons under his belt and is on pace to do it again despite not getting #1 PP minutes. It's crazy how people are ready to throw him away because they feel like he doesn't hit enough. Theres 30 other teams in the league that would love to have a Hamilton "problem".

Hamilton is a big, smooth-skating, offensive specialist with a great shot. He'll probably put up 35-50 points a year. Yes, any team in the NHL would want him.

He's also lazy, temperamental, and hasn't shown any improvement in his play without the puck since he's been here. He needs to be paired with our best d-man in order to be effective.

Basically, he's a supporting piece on defence. An offensive specialist. He hasn't shown any sign of being a great, or even good, all-around defenceman. His ceiling is Mike Green. Floor is Jake Gardiner.

I'd move Hamilton before I moved Brodie. While Hamilton has a higher offensive upside, he could get a young core piece (ie Marner) back, while Brodie would bring a lesser return.

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Hamilton is a big, smooth-skating, offensive specialist with a great shot. He'll probably put up 35-50 points a year. Yes, any team in the NHL would want him.

He's also lazy, temperamental, and hasn't shown any improvement in his play without the puck since he's been here. He needs to be paired with our best d-man in order to be effective.

Basically, he's a supporting piece on defence. An offensive specialist. He hasn't shown any sign of being a great, or even good, all-around defenceman. His ceiling is Mike Green. Floor is Jake Gardiner.

I'd move Hamilton before I moved Brodie. While Hamilton has a higher offensive upside, he could get a young core piece (ie Marner) back, while Brodie would bring a lesser return.

I see things mostly the way you do. Although while Hamilton's shot is quite powerful I don't think it is very accurate. Also, when he tries to be more aggressive, he has a tendency to take bad penalties. Also having to pair Hamilton with Gio, we are sacrificing Brodie.

[Lanny_McDonald]

You don't move anyone until you get a competent coach in the ranks. See what these guys can do with a coach who can use their talents, rather than trying to hammer square pegs into round holes.

[Brick]

Bench him.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Brick

Bench him.

Benching him is cutting off your nose to spite your face. He may not be playing well, but even at this level he's 5x better than Bartowski or anyone we have in the AHL.

[Classic_Sniper]

Does anyone remember why Brodie was removed from the top pair with Gio? I vaguely remember Dougie playing with Russell, then the next season he was playing Jokipakka. Was Brodie moved because Dougie was struggling and needed to play with Gio?

[Gaskal]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Does anyone remember why Brodie was removed from the top pair with Gio? I vaguely remember Dougie playing with Russell, then the next season he was playing Jokipakka. Was Brodie moved because Dougie was struggling and needed to play with Gio?

After Grossman went on waivers, he was briefly returned to Giordano's right. It went very badly for both of them. We were trying desperately to find a top pairing and save our season, experimenting when Gio Dougie was found to have substantial utility and developed into the best top pairing in the NHL last season.

After that the writing was on the wall - drag Wideman around until Stone came in at the TDL and had some pretty decent chemistry. We all thought Hammer would be better in the role but he doesn't shoot as much.

[442scotty]

Give Brodie a 10 game stretch with Stone again. If he’s still not coming around then trade him and bring up Anderson

[neo45]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Does anyone remember why Brodie was removed from the top pair with Gio? I vaguely remember Dougie playing with Russell, then the next season he was playing Jokipakka. Was Brodie moved because Dougie was struggling and needed to play with Gio?

No it had nothing to do with Dougie originally. Opening night saw Dougie playing with Grossman (wtf Gulutzan) and Giordano with Wideman (again wtf). I think the logic was three even D pairs but in reality it ended up being three mediocre d pairs.

[JTech780]

Brodie was just as bad when he was on the right side, he actually gave the puck away more and had worse possession numbers playing on the right side, Gio just covered most of his mistakes.

Brodie just doesn't have any hockey sense and thinks he's too good to have to play within a system, he just free wheels and skates where ever he wants, making it next to impossible for his D partner to read off of him because you never know where he is going to be on the ice.

Brodie just isn't that good and honestly never has been that good.

[Huntingwhale]

Originally Posted by JTech780

Brodie was just as bad when he was on the right side, he actually gave the puck away more and had worse possession numbers playing on the right side, Gio just covered most of his mistakes.

Brodie just doesn't have any hockey sense and thinks he's too good to have to play within a system, he just free wheels and skates where ever he wants, making it next to impossible for his D partner to read off of him because you never know where he is going to be on the ice.

Brodie just isn't that good and honestly never has been that good.

My eye balls tell me differently. He and Gio were used as not only the shutdown pair, but drove plenty of offence. There were plenty of replays on SN where Hurdey would highlight just how effectively that pairing was when the puck got dumped into the Flames' zone, retrieved, D to D pass, than outlet pass out the zone. It was beautiful to watch and over and over it worked well until Gio got injured.

Brodie has progressively gotten worse and worse playing his opposite side under GG. Under Hartley, he got better and better every season. Yes Gio makes his partner better, but Brodie was so slouch. He was very much in the conversation for team Canada. Now, you'd be laughed out of town if you suggested that.

I said this offseason and last, the Flames will go as Brodie goes. He has more of an impact over anyone on the team outside of the goalie. More than Gaudreau, more than Gio and more than any other skater.

I firmly believe that you fix Brodie, and you fix the Flames. But nope, let's take him away from the best partner he ever had, play him on the opposite end (how well did that work for Iggy in Pittsburgh?), and try to get him to play a style he's not that effective at.

GG in a nutshell. Hard set on his ways and no room to modify. Win his way, or don't win at all.

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by JTech780

Brodie was just as bad when he was on the right side, he actually gave the puck away more and had worse possession numbers playing on the right side, Gio just covered most of his mistakes.

Brodie just doesn't have any hockey sense and thinks he's too good to have to play within a system, he just free wheels and skates where ever he wants, making it next to impossible for his D partner to read off of him because you never know where he is going to be on the ice.

Brodie just isn't that good and honestly never has been that good.

Brodie and Gio were one of the best D pairs in the NHL a few years back. Obviously they were successful in reading each other.

I feel so frustrated that Brodie isn't put back with Gio, for the sake of Hamilton.

[Brick]

Actually, they should play him with whomever will stabilize his play for as long as it takes to get the highest possible trade value for him.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

Brodie and Gio were one of the best D pairs in the NHL a few years back. Obviously they were successful in reading each other.

I feel so frustrated that Brodie isn't put back with Gio, for the sake of Hamilton.

Hamilton and Gio are one of the best defense pairs in the NHL right now.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

Brodie and Gio were one of the best D pairs in the NHL a few years back. Obviously they were successful in reading each other.

I feel so frustrated that Brodie isn't put back with Gio, for the sake of Hamilton.

I went back to last season’s game logs and Dougie Hamilton was paired with Jokipakka at one point and I remember them looking so atrocious together to the point where the Dougie trade rumors were at their peak. Hamilton was playing between 14-15 mins and was a minus every game.

I think at the time as it’s getting back to me, the thinking was to have Brodie carry his on pairing and to have Gio try to prop up Dougie which ended up working really well. So end the end of the day, both Brodie and Hamilton shine with Gio and both need him to be at their best. It’s unfortunate we can’t clone Gio, but that’s just how it goes. 1 of the 2 is going to struggle and that’s Brodie at this point.

[jaikorven]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

I went back to last season’s game logs and Dougie Hamilton was paired with Jokipakka at one point and I remember them looking so atrocious together to the point where the Dougie trade rumors were at their peak. Hamilton was playing between 14-15 mins and was a minus every game.

I think at the time as it’s getting back to me, the thinking was to have Brodie carry his on pairing and to have Gio try to prop up Dougie which ended up working really well. So end the end of the day, both Brodie and Hamilton shine with Gio and both need him to be at their best. It’s unfortunate we can’t clone Gio, but that’s just how it goes. 1 of the 2 is going to struggle and that’s Brodie at this point.

I remember it this way as well and that's why I think Stone needs to be with Brodie. They at least looked half decent together and seemed to click much quicker than Brodie / Hamonic, who have not clicked, really at all.