Ban organized religion, says Elton John

[FlamingLonghorn]

Originally Posted by FireFly

? Nice try. Guns are also a creation of man, so how about I start shooting people and blame the dude that invented the gun?

There's a difference obviously guns don't create conflict religion does. It can't be argued that a society without religion has less conflict than one with it because religion is just one more thing to segregate people it goes along with money and race...

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by FireFly

I'm not saying you're picked on because of your religion. What I'm saying is that religion will contribute to a child's manners and socialization which will then contribute to that child's propensity to fight or bully. I'm not saying that a gang of athiests is going to kick the crap out of a gang of Christians, just that the socialization of each will contribute to whether or not such children partake in such activites.

Well it depends, thats kind of inferring a generalization between the way christian parents raise their children vs. non. I know plenty of 'Christians' who are piles of crap to their kids and plenty who aren't. Same goes to atheists. It would be wrong to assume that.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by photon

I think you are confusing the fact of evolution with the theory of evolution..

The fact of evolution is the studying of the natural world. Organisms seem to change over time. Fossils for animals that do not exist anymore are found. The genetics of living organisms show all kinds of relationships and shared code. Uncountable other observations of nature, this is the fact of evolution. Most creationists do not dispute what is observed.

I'm sorry but, I believe you are confusing facts of nature with facts of evolution. Organisms showing a limited ability within their environment to change doesn't demonstrate evolution. Fossil tell us that there hyas been mass extinction. Fossils are not found conveniently in obvious layers of rock. They are found randomly. They generally are found in groups that correspond to size and buoyancy. There is no accurate way of aging them. The genetics of genetic code show all kinds of relationships to one another. That doesn't prove they evolved from one another. I could argue that it proves that they came from the same designer. I would be wrong and so are you. Those observations prove neither.

Science doesn't ridicule other theories.. people do. Some scientists will of course ridicule anyone with religious leanings just like some religious people will ridicule anyone not religious. So what? Science itself moves slow.

My ex-pastor's middle daughter just received her doctorate in immunology. She has endured professor who belittled her beliefs and has had to stay clear of others who would have failed her if they knew her beliefs. Yes some scientists ridicule religious people.

It's very simple, if the theories put forward by creationists are correct, eventually they will become the prevailing theory. Without question (unless science becomes outlawed or something). Science always self correct; that's the whole foundation of science.

Who would fund such research? Not the government. The only funding one could get to fund the question of the possibility of intelligent design is from religious organizations. This happens on a small scale but, even then the research is ridiculed because of it's source rather then evaluated.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

I agree...it has got to be the stupidest thing to have children communed at such a young age. Absolutly stupid. Having said that, I have met a few priests that also think it is very stupid.

Some parts of the Christian belief also don't believe in baptism until the child is old enough to figure stuff out on their own.

Let their brains grow...yes...but that also means that you don't force feed a child atheism until they're 18.

Surely you're not going to do that to your kids Cheese, right?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Id like you to explain how both can exist together?

You are very shallow if you think they can't. I believe in God...but I also happen to believe that the Big Bang did happen...and that we as humans share a common ancestor with the ape.

Science does not rule out religion..and religion does not rule out science.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Sowa

There's a difference obviously guns don't create conflict religion does. It can't be argued that a society without religion has less conflict than one with it because religion is just one more thing to segregate people it goes along with money and race...

Sure they do. According to your POV, that is.

Without guns..how many wars would have been started? How many people would have been killed?

A society without guns..is a society without bloodshed, right?

[FlamingLonghorn]

Originally Posted by Azure

Sure they do. According to your POV, that is.

Without guns..how many wars would have been started? How many people would have been killed?

A society without guns..is a society without bloodshed, right?

UM there was war before guns I don't really know what you are talking about... I clearly stated guns don't create conflict where is it my POV that they do?

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Sowa

There's a difference obviously guns don't create conflict religion does. It can't be argued that a society without religion has less conflict than one with it because religion is just one more thing to segregate people it goes along with money and race...

Religion is an excuse to create conflict. If there is no religion, there are other things to blame it on.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Sowa

UM there was war before guns I don't really know what you are talking about... I clearly stated guns don't create conflict where is it my POV that they do?

"Guns don't creat conflict..religion does"

Right? So every single conflict in this world has been started because of religion? The Cold War was based on religion? All those proxy wars? Vietnam, Korea, Afghanistan?

US against the USSR? A religious conflict? Or a conflict over weapons(guns) and technology?

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Well it depends, thats kind of inferring a generalization between the way christian parents raise their children vs. non. I know plenty of 'Christians' who are piles of crap to their kids and plenty who aren't. Same goes to atheists. It would be wrong to assume that.

NO! You're kidding, right? It's wrong to assume that all member of a religion or non religion will raise their kids the same way?! Yet isn't that what some people in this thread are doing? Making generalizations about the way Christians raise their children?

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by FireFly

NO! You're kidding, right? It's wrong to assume that all member of a religion or non religion will raise their kids the same way?! Yet isn't that what some people in this thread are doing? Making generalizations about the way Christians raise their children?

Well, did I misread your statement earlier or did you say what I thought you said?

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Well, did I misread your statement earlier or did you say what I thought you said?

Nope, you read it fine. I was being sarcastic. The point does still stand though in the positive or negative. Religion CAN be a primary socialization agent for a child. Likewise, the lack of religious worship will also have a socialization effect on children. It depends on the parents and how the parents treat the religion or lack of religion. Either way, it does affect a child's mannerisms be it in a positive or negative manner.

*edited to add that I didn't specify in the above post though I may have implied. The lack of specification was for a reason... that it can be a positive or negative influence.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by FireFly

So you're saying that religion by itself kills people, or does religion need to be manipulated by humans in order to use it to kill people? In which case, isn't it the people, and not the religion?

I hate the saying "guns don't kill people..."
That's pretty much all I was saying.
I don't think applying that saying to anything serves your arguement well. Whether it is religion, or smoking, or anything else.

The arguement basically justifies the creation and use of anything bad/evil/dangerous etc. and instead of showing the worth of such items (ie, religion), it just shifts the blame to people.

Personally, I think there are some good things about religion, I just think that arguement fails to show them or even atempt to show them.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

... Science has accepted it as the only answer to the question and just keeps reworking new hypothesis on how. What's worse is Science has closed its ears to alternate theories and takes a stance of mocking and ridicule rather than rational evaluation.

Irony = Calgaryborn accusing ANYONE of being closed minded and unwilling to evaluate alternate hypothesis.

[longsuffering]

More irony

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

When Science starts disregarding questions because the person is religious or use the argument: "every respected scientist believes what I believe so it must be true" you know science has lost its way.

Let's rephrase that:

When Calgaryborn starts disregarding questions because: "some verses in the Bible support my dogma so it must be true" you know religion has lost its way.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

More irony



Let's rephrase that:

When Calgaryborn starts disregarding questions because: "some verses in the Bible support my dogma so it must be true" you know religion has lost its way.

Christianity isn't based on the scientific method it is based on faith. Faith in a book and that person{Jesus Christ} the book is written about.

Scientists have placed like faith in a theory and spend their time finding circumstantial evidence for it. Because of their faith they will not look at opposing evidence or seriously consider they're wrong.

Try to openly question evolution and get a degree in the sciences. Try to openly question evolution and get a research job. Evolution has high jacked science.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by FireFly

NO! You're kidding, right? It's wrong to assume that all member of a religion or non religion will raise their kids the same way?! Yet isn't that what some people in this thread are doing? Making generalizations about the way Christians raise their children?

No generalizations are being made anywhere. Where do you see a generalization Fly? I think I was being specific....dont teach chidren anything about religion until they reach age of consent...I promise I wont teach Atheism unti that age as well...but Christians first!
WAIT....If no religion is taught won't theists think thats Atheist? Is that a double-entendre?
Seriously Fly...Why dont you just try to philosophise with your kids as opposed to religion? IF a child does not get any religious education please draw me some accurate parallel to how this child will be hurt or lacking in anything.

the lack of religious worship will also have a socialization effect on children.

Oh pullllllease...a socialization effect? Like what...not having to be forced out of bed on Sunday morning to go to Sunday School?

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Christianity isn't based on the scientific method it is based on faith. Faith in a book and that person{Jesus Christ} the book is written about.

Scientists have placed like faith in a theory and spend their time finding circumstantial evidence for it. Because of their faith they will not look at opposing evidence or seriously consider they're wrong.

Try to openly question evolution and get a degree in the sciences. Try to openly question evolution and get a research job. Evolution has high jacked science.

You keep hauling out the Strawman attacks CalgaryBornAgain....shouldnt you be getting ready for church? Please provide us with ANY documented evidence outisde of the church to base your theories on...anything at all. You are one BIG False Dilemna!
FAITH? Is that like the Muslims who have faith? Did that faith push the Muslims into flying planes full of innocent people into 2 towers a few years back? Is their faith different from yours? If so why?

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Azure

Some parts of the Christian belief also don't believe in baptism until the child is old enough to figure stuff out on their own.

Let their brains grow...yes...but that also means that you don't force feed a child atheism until they're 18.

Surely you're not going to do that to your kids Cheese, right?

What the heck does that mean Azure? LOL...Isnt ATHEISM the lack of theism? So how do Atheists not fall into that quagmire?
Do you think Atheists sit around and preach to their children? Do you think we sit and have Kumbaya's with fellow Atheists?

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Cheese is this site talking about the same Gregory S. Paul that you've placed so much faith in?

http://www.neilchilson.com/?p=100

Yes as a matter of fact he is the same guy? Why CBA? Do you disregard his findings because hes a scientist? Do you disregard his findings because he did not use the bible to back up the answers found with hypothesis?
If you dig a bit deeper you will find that many scholars have suggested that his study is one of the best presented and draws definitive conclusions. The question being taken from this is...

Does religion lead directly to dysfunctionality, or do religions merely flourish in dysfunctional societies?
This study is complicated enough that I do not think that we can draw definitive negative conclusions about religion. But we can at least conclude, contrary to popular belief in this country, that it is not a given that religious societies are better, healthier, or more moral.

Skeptics review

More on the study

when it comes to working for a better society the religious need to stop sermonising, get up off their knees, unclasp those praying hands and work for measurable change in the here and now.

More articles...

Of course, anyone who has a rudimentary knowledge of statistics can recite the stock “correlation doesn’t equal causation” chant. It’s possible that religiosity may affect dysfunctionality but it’s also quite possible that social ills influence people to become more religious. But, never-the-less, the results of this study are a beacon for those who champion the cause of secularism. Turns out Humanists were right: religion doesn’t have a monopoly on morality after all.