Ban organized religion, says Elton John

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by photon

Yes Bacon definately contributed as well, though modern scientific method is quite different than what Bacon described.

Interesting though... Bacon's method puts experimentation first and a hypothesis is supposed to follow out of observations of the experimentation all the while getting independant verification of experiments. While Creationism gives the hypothesis with no experimentation (it makes no predictions), only observation is allowed.

Every scientific experiment originates with a question. "Is there evidence of intelligent design?" is the question. The answer can be observed by studying the natural world. The problem with evolutionary theory is it isn't treated like a question but rather as a truth. Science has ceased asking questions and now seems content to prove their answer. Anyone doubting this so called "truth" is ridiculed. When Science starts disregarding questions because the person is religious or use the argument: "every respected scientist believes what I believe so it must be true" you know science has lost its way.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

I wasn't aware that evolutionary biology has been observed beyond random changes which occur naturally within every species. Nothing new has evolved since Darwin introduced his theory. Science has only observed changes within a species.

It has though. New species have been observed. And even if they hadn't, direct "I saw it" evidence isn't required to substantiate evolution. In fact if a dog gave birth to something other than a dog, that would support creationism. There is genetic evidence, homology between different organisms (two organisms that share a structure that can be traced back to a common ancestor), the fossil record, biogeography, etc etc.. Evolution makes specific predictions that have shown to be true.

The only prediction that I can think of that creationism makes is that there would be some sort of mechanism to stop "microevolution" (the changes within a species you agree have been observed) from becoming "macroevolution" (changes to a new species, which has also been observed). However no mechanism has been found yet. There's nothing to stop changes from crossing "species boundaries" (whatever those are).

If creationists wanted to really disprove evolution, that's where they could focus their efforts. Find that mechanism and they'd have the attention of everyone.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Roger Bacon has been a popular martyr for science since the nineteenth century. He was a scholastic theologian who was keen to claim Aristotle for the Christian faith. He was not a scientist in any way we would recognise and his ideas are not nearly so revolutionary as they are often painted. In chapter 12 of his book, White writes of Roger “the charges on which St. Bonaventura silenced him, and Jerome of Ascoli imprisoned him, and successive popes kept him in prison for fourteen years, were "dangerous novelties" and suspected sorcery.” This is untrue. As Lindberg says “his imprisonment, if it occurred at all (which I doubt) probably resulted with his sympathies for the radical “poverty” wing of the Franciscans (a wholly theological matter) rather than from any scientific novelties which he may have proposed.”

More BornAgain myth exploded

Rodger Bacon was a Christian. His trouble with the Catholic church as your article pointed out had to do with dogma. Dogma is what a religious organization believes. Doctrine is what the Bible teaches. When a organizations religious dogma disagrees with biblical doctrine there is a conflict.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Rodger Bacon was a Christian. His trouble with the Catholic church as your article pointed out had to do with dogma. Dogma is what a religious organization believes. Doctrine is what the Bible teaches. When a organizations religious dogma disagrees with biblical doctrine there is a conflict.

Dogma

1. A doctrine or a corpus of doctrines relating to matters such as morality and faith, set forth in an authoritative manner by a church.
2. An authoritative principle, belief, or statement of ideas or opinion, especially one considered to be absolutely true. See synonyms at doctrine.
3. A principle or belief or a group of them: “The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present” (Abraham Lincoln).

Thanks for coming out...and thanks for only taking small parts of the facts into consideration.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Every scientific experiment originates with a question. "Is there evidence of intelligent design?" is the question. The answer can be observed by studying the natural world. The problem with evolutionary theory is it isn't treated like a question but rather as a truth. Science has ceased asking questions and now seems content to prove their answer. Anyone doubting this so called "truth" is ridiculed. When Science starts disregarding questions because the person is religious or use the argument: "every respected scientist believes what I believe so it must be true" you know science has lost its way.

I think you are confusing the fact of evolution with the theory of evolution..

The fact of gravity is easily observed; drop an apple. The theory of gravity explains it.

The fact of evolution is the studying of the natural world. Organisms seem to change over time. Fossils for animals that do not exist anymore are found. The genetics of living organisms show all kinds of relationships and shared code. Uncountable other observations of nature, this is the fact of evolution. Most creationists do not dispute what is observed.

The theory of evolution explains it. It explains the mechanisms behind it, what drives it, why we see specific patters. It makes predictions that we verify through observation or experimentation. And evolution has changed dramatically since Darwin.

Science doesn't ridicule other theories.. people do. Some scientists will of course ridicule anyone with religious leanings just like some religious people will ridicule anyone not religious. So what? Science itself moves slow.

It's very simple, if the theories put forward by creationists are correct, eventually they will become the prevailing theory. Without question (unless science becomes outlawed or something). Science always self correct; that's the whole foundation of science.

The problem is that the theories put forward by creationists simply don't stand up to scrutiny. At best they highlight unanswered questions; things that aren't known yet.

When someone puts forward an alternate theory that explains the observations, and it gets ripped to shreds, that's the JOB of scientists. They're supposed to scrutinize a new theory and poke it and squeeze it to see if it holds together. If they don't then that's when science fails. If it holds together and better explains the observations, then it'll replace the prevailing theory. If not, it will fall away. It's happened thousands of times throughout history, there's no rational reason to expect it won't continue.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Cheese

sorry Ms Fly...my tongue is always firmly embedded in my cheek when posting to ewe...LOL. Thanks for the Nazi reference...its always nice to see the Christians back up their theories with profound references. One day you and Mr BornAgain have to move into the next century.
By the way...Moldy Bacteria wouldnt bother me...I understand the need to let it loose sometimes.

Do you not blame organized religion for pretty much all the worlds wars? Do you not think that organized religion with all it's power should be doing more to stop the world's evils? Cause I'm pretty sure you've said that organized religion has done more harm then good in this world. Repeatedly and with ferver. Which is exactly how Nazism started... a man with a mission to blame religion for Germany's issues... and killing the Jews to ensure it doesn't happen again.

Now granted, I don't think you've said we should kill off Christians, rather that we should just kill the religion. You've been very good at painting every Christian with the exact same brush and blame them for corrupting the children of this world. I'm fairly certain however that the pregnant 14 year old babies raising babies aren't Christian, and they're doing a damn fine job of corrupting today's youth without the aid of religion.

So what if I want to believe in Jesus and that he died for my sins? So what if I'd like my children to believe in it too and that involves Sunday school and singing about Noah's Arky Arky... At least I'm spending time with them and loving them and giving them morals. There are bigger issues in the world that you would be better off trying to fix. But no, you'd rather blame all the world's evils on religion. Cause I'm sure that every 14 year old girl who ever got herself addicted to drugs and knocked up was raised by a couple of Fundamental Christians who just wouldn't give up teaching her "the way, the truth and the light." I'm sure that the gangs in Calgary are the result of religious wars and have nothing at all to do with teaching our kids hatred. I'm sure that the biker killings in Ontario are the result of one group of Bikers "seeing the light" and hearing a voice that told them to kill the others.

Yeah that's it. It's religion's fault.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by FireFly

Do you not blame organized religion for pretty much all the worlds religions? Do you not think that organized religion with all it's power should be doing more to stop the world's evils? Cause I'm pretty sure you've said that organized religion has done more harm then good in this world. Repeatedly and with ferver. Which is exactly how Nazism started... a man with a mission to blame religion for Germany's issues... and killing the Jews to ensure it doesn't happen again.

Now granted, I don't think you've said we should kill off Christians, rather that we should just kill the religion. You've been very good at painting every Christian with the exact same brush and blame them for corrupting the children of this world. I'm fairly certain however that the pregnant 14 year old babies raising babies aren't Christian, and they're doing a damn fine job of corrupting today's youth without the aid of religion.

So what if I want to believe in Jesus and that he died for my sins? So what if I'd like my children to believe in it too and that involves Sunday school and singing about Noah's Arky Arky... At least I'm spending time with them and loving them and giving them morals. There are bigger issues in the world that you would be better off trying to fix. But no, you'd rather blame all the world's evils on religion. Cause I'm sure that every 14 year old girl who ever got herself addicted to drugs and knocked up was raised by a couple of Fundamental Christians who just wouldn't give up teaching her "the way, the truth and the light." I'm sure that the gangs in Calgary are the result of religious wars and have nothing at all to do with teaching our kids hatred. I'm sure that the biker killings in Ontario are the result of one group of Bikers "seeing the light" and hearing a voice that told them to kill the others.

Yeah that's it. It's religion's fault.

In the other link on Conservative donations I posted this link with this blurb...

..independent scholar Gregory S. Paul found an inverse correlation between religiosity (measured by belief in God, biblical literalism, and frequency of prayer and service attendance) and societal health (measured by rates of homicide, childhood mortality, life expectancy, sexually transmitted diseases, and teen abortions and pregnancies) in 18 developed democracies. "In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD [sexually transmitted disease] infection rates, teen pregnancy, and abortion in the prosperous democracies..

So I assume the religious are doing a good enough job corrupting their own children?
Now please dont suggest Im anything akin to a homicidal maniac, because as an Atheist I see nothing positive from a Christian perspective...that is simply just another case of fear mongering that sits so well in the laps of the holy.
Again...I dont give a hoot if you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster...go ahead and kill yourself sucking on those long strands of pasta...simply leave the kids out of it until they are wise enough to make their own decision without bias.
Oh and one other thing...I dont blame religions for all of the worlds problems...but hey they cause enough issues that to simply turn my back and have a blind eye just doesnt cut it.

[photon]

I was going to mention that; I read a few studies recently that showed rates of teel pregnancy (among many other things) were higher in religious areas, and another that showed religious societies do not have all these benifits that have been proclaimed and in fact are worse in the things measured (not that that proves religion is the cause).

And it was a huge scientific study (with good scientific methods).

I don't have it here but I can dig it up when I get home if anyone is interested.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Cheese

In the other link on Conservative donations I posted this link with this blurb...

..independent scholar Gregory S. Paul found an inverse correlation between religiosity (measured by belief in God, biblical literalism, and frequency of prayer and service attendance) and societal health (measured by rates of homicide, childhood mortality, life expectancy, sexually transmitted diseases, and teen abortions and pregnancies) in 18 developed democracies. "In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD [sexually transmitted disease] infection rates, teen pregnancy, and abortion in the prosperous democracies..

So I assume the religious are doing a good enough job corrupting their own children?
Now please dont suggest Im anything akin to a homicidal maniac, because as an Atheist I see nothing positive from a Christian perspective...that is simply just another case of fear mongering that sits so well in the laps of the holy.
Again...I dont give a hoot if you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster...go ahead and kill yourself sucking on those long strands of pasta...simply leave the kids out of it until they are wise enough to make their own decision without bias.
Oh and one other thing...I dont blame religions for all of the worlds problems...but hey they cause enough issues that to simply turn my back and have a blind eye just doesnt cut it.

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with that study because it doesn't appear that there are enough variables taken into consideration. Let's look at bullying. I bet you that Christian kids getbullied more by the athiest kids who don't have to worry about consequences in the afterlife. I know I was bullied a lot by kids that didn't go to church. Made me want to try and fit in more which led me to drugs and sex. Do I blame the religion for that? Well it's not really the religion's fault that I was teased, nor was it the religion's fault that as I child I didn't understand what I was getting into with the sex or the drugs. Is that taken into consideration in the study?

I never said you were a homicidal maniac, I said you blame religion the way the Nazi's did. Let's deflect attention from the fact that we're all screwing up our children and point out that fundies do it better. That's what the Germans did. The deflected. They wanted to blame someone else so they found a scapegoat and started blaming.

Frankly, the religion you raise your child within is only one of a multitude of contributing factors into why our kids are screwed up. It matters what's happening in school. It matters that this has become a materialistic world and if you don't "fit in" in school, you're going to do whatever you can to try.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by FireFly

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with that study because it doesn't appear that there are enough variables taken into consideration. Let's look at bullying. I bet you that Christian kids getbullied more by the athiest kids who don't have to worry about consequences in the afterlife. I know I was bullied a lot by kids that didn't go to church. Made me want to try and fit in more which led me to drugs and sex. Do I blame the religion for that? Well it's not really the religion's fault that I was teased, nor was it the religion's fault that as I child I didn't understand what I was getting into with the sex or the drugs. Is that taken into consideration in the study?

I never said you were a homicidal maniac, I said you blame religion the way the Nazi's did. Let's deflect attention from the fact that we're all screwing up our children and point out that fundies do it better. That's what the Germans did. The deflected. They wanted to blame someone else so they found a scapegoat and started blaming.

Frankly, the religion you raise your child within is only one of a multitude of contributing factors into why our kids are screwed up. It matters what's happening in school. It matters that this has become a materialistic world and if you don't "fit in" in school, you're going to do whatever you can to try.

wow...thats quite the little stretch Fly. Do you have some type of study on the first part hilited? I can remember quite clearly as a kid being on both sides of the fence...and quite frankly religion never entered my mind when taking or giving a beating. I might have uttered the words God or Jesus in reference to either the pain of the hit or the supposed feeling of control. Maybe thats where you draw your parallel?
Having raised 2 families and having talked to my kids...at length...about various things..I dont EVER remember them suggesting at any time that the religion of a person or the religious practice or non practise was part of anything to do with bullying. Maybe it was simply a paranoid reaction to something said by your parents as a child?
Saying I blame religion the way the Nazis did is inferring I am of like mind to a Nazi. Now I havent laid that kind of low blow on you...but I could if you want? I will however suggest you go back thru this thread and read where I posted a link or links about how Nazis and Hitler actually were not Atheists and actually used religion as a base. Im too tired to go back and find it for you...and Im 100% positive youll find those links posted in just about every other thread these discussions come up in.
Now please dont go off half pussied again about things...I didnt say ALL of you were bad..I simply posted a link to someone else who did a study suggesting that theists dont hold any moral high ground whatsoever when it comes to raising children any better...and MAY in fact be worse. Not my words or my study.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by Cheese

In the other link on Conservative donations I posted this link with this blurb...

..independent scholar Gregory S. Paul found an inverse correlation between religiosity (measured by belief in God, biblical literalism, and frequency of prayer and service attendance) and societal health (measured by rates of homicide, childhood mortality, life expectancy, sexually transmitted diseases, and teen abortions and pregnancies) in 18 developed democracies. "In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD [sexually transmitted disease] infection rates, teen pregnancy, and abortion in the prosperous democracies..

Cheese is this site talking about the same Gregory S. Paul that you've placed so much faith in?

http://www.neilchilson.com/?p=100

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Cheese

wow...thats quite the little stretch Fly. Do you have some type of study on the first part hilited? I can remember quite clearly as a kid being on both sides of the fence...and quite frankly religion never entered my mind when taking or giving a beating. I might have uttered the words God or Jesus in reference to either the pain of the hit or the supposed feeling of control. Maybe thats where you draw your parallel?
Having raised 2 families and having talked to my kids...at length...about various things..I dont EVER remember them suggesting at any time that the religion of a person or the religious practice or non practise was part of anything to do with bullying. Maybe it was simply a paranoid reaction to something said by your parents as a child?
Saying I blame religion the way the Nazis did is inferring I am of like mind to a Nazi. Now I havent laid that kind of low blow on you...but I could if you want? I will however suggest you go back thru this thread and read where I posted a link or links about how Nazis and Hitler actually were not Atheists and actually used religion as a base. Im too tired to go back and find it for you...and Im 100% positive youll find those links posted in just about every other thread these discussions come up in.
Now please dont go off half pussied again about things...I didnt say ALL of you were bad..I simply posted a link to someone else who did a study suggesting that theists dont hold any moral high ground whatsoever when it comes to raising children any better...and MAY in fact be worse. Not my words or my study.

You know Cheese, as a child I NEVER would have hurt anyone BECAUSE I was raised better than that. Living in a small community, you knew which kids went to church and actually paid attention and you know which kids didn't. Whether it came and went through their mind at the time is rather irrelevant because as you said, children are mallable. They don't question why they're doing things, it's ingrained. Also, I suggested it as a reason that such a study is imperfect. I never said that I was 100% certain, I just said that I'd bet if a study were done, the results would prove other variables.

I also don't give a **** whether Hitler and the Nazi's were athiests or not. That wasn't my point. My point is that they blamed religion, as do you. I don't care whether they were religious or not. I said they blamed religion, as do you. I call em like I see em. I'm sorry that reflects badly on you. Guns don't hurt people, people hurt people Cheese. Same can be said for religion.

Also, don't you know that for every study out there, there is another one proving the exact opposite? You should know better Cheese. You're old enough now.

And again, I love how you throw in thinly veiled, and now sexist barbs. half-pussied? The phrase is half-cocked, like a gun. Guns don't get pussied. Really. I'm quite disappointed in you. I thought you were better than that.

[FlamingLonghorn]

Yeah well where I went to high school in Amarillo, buckle of the bible belt, Texas, the good "Christian" kids would start fights with my friends and I all the time. Hell one of those church goers murdered one of my friends with his car...

The point of this is you can't take your experiences and think they are representative of the whole world...

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by FireFly

Guns don't hurt people, people hurt people Cheese. Same can be said for religion.

You're saying one of the stupidest saying around can also be applied to religion?
Not very good support for religion.

[CaramonLS]

Growing up in part in a small town (Rural Nova Scotia) and part in Calgary, I never once heard of anyone or was myself picked on based on religion/athesim.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

You're saying one of the stupidest saying around can also be applied to religion?
Not very good support for religion.

So you're saying that religion by itself kills people, or does religion need to be manipulated by humans in order to use it to kill people? In which case, isn't it the people, and not the religion?

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Growing up in part in a small town (Rural Nova Scotia) and part in Calgary, I never once heard of anyone or was myself picked on based on religion/athesim.

I'm not saying you're picked on because of your religion. What I'm saying is that religion will contribute to a child's manners and socialization which will then contribute to that child's propensity to fight or bully. I'm not saying that a gang of athiests is going to kick the crap out of a gang of Christians, just that the socialization of each will contribute to whether or not such children partake in such activites.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Sowa

Yeah well where I went to high school in Amarillo, buckle of the bible belt, Texas, the good "Christian" kids would start fights with my friends and I all the time. Hell one of those church goers murdered one of my friends with his car...

The point of this is you can't take your experiences and think they are representative of the whole world...

You're absolutely correct. Which is part of my point. Saying that a person's religion is what caused them to have a higher propensity for whatever doesn't take into consideration the other contributing factors in that person's life. It just contributes.

You've admitted that you grew up in the Bible Belt and were picked on by the Christians... who likely outnumbered you, right? (Or were you Christian too?) It's natural for those who outnumber others to pick on the 'weaker' group, whichever that is.

[FlamingLonghorn]

Originally Posted by FireFly

So you're saying that religion by itself kills people, or does religion need to be manipulated by humans in order to use it to kill people? In which case, isn't it the people, and not the religion?

Well organized religion is a creation of man so yes it's the religion and the people.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Sowa

Well organized religion is a creation of man so yes it's the religion and the people.

? Nice try. Guns are also a creation of man, so how about I start shooting people and blame the dude that invented the gun?