Kevin Spacey accused of attempted rape by Anthony Rapp when he was 14

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by speede5

Agree. My point is that we are throwing around the word sexual assault and it seems that a lot of the responses say this wasn't an assault because of the actions, but it was because of the age.

I think that was AFC's point, for which he is getting lambasted.

So walk the walk then. Without looking, tell us the legal definition of a sexual assault and then explain the nuances involved.

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

We don't know. That's not my point. I remember a case of a woman accusing two guys of raping her in a hotel room in Banff. According to her, she had met them in a bar, had a good time and then went to sleep with one of them to their room, but then found the second guy having sex with her after the first one was done. According to the men, she had consented. The judge said something to the effect of: "clearly one of the parties is being untruthful, but this court has no way of determining which one". The guys were acquitted 100%. If they're honest, their life could have been ruined by the woman's accusation. If she was honest, then they didn't get the punishment they deserved.

The above example, for the most part, is the essence of many sexual assault cases, where a consensual private gathering had occurred in circumstances leading to a situation. But the court of public opinion to unproven allegations is not the right answer to resolve the legal shortcomings of prosecution.

What you're describing is not a false accusation. There are such things as totally, provably false and malicious accusations but those are rare, 2%-7% of all cases, and they are usually very easily proven false and they often result in charges against the complainant. The woman you highlight as an example is very likely not making this up as it passed the "smell test" to bring charges. Proving her case is a different thing. It's not fair for you to say people should shut up about their attacker so as to not damage the reputation of what in reality is a very small number of people.

[CaptainYooh]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

... It's not fair for you to say people should shut up about their attacker so as to not damage the reputation of what in reality is a very small number of people.

I didn't say that at all. Accuse and prosecute legally, before doing it publicly. Public damage to one's life cannot be undone.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

In Gomeshi case, it's been proven that the two women conspired to bring him down for selfish and spiteful reasons; yet, his career and finances have been ruined, while the accusers are portrayed as heroes in the media

This seems like a pretty terrible example, and if that's the best you've got to underscore your point...

[CaptainYooh]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

This seems like a pretty terrible example...

why?

[DownInFlames]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

why?

Because he's unquestioningly a sexual predator.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

I didn't say that at all. Accuse and prosecute legally, before doing it publicly. Public damage to one's life cannot be undone.

Nor can personal damage (which is what many of these who are suffering public damage caused), and with the high difficulty of getting legal closure especially 10, 20, or 30 years on, what would you have them do?

Obviously identifying the abuse immediately after it happens would be ideal, but you can’t go back and change history, so what would you do?

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

I didn't say that at all. Accuse and prosecute legally, before doing it publicly. Public damage to one's life cannot be undone.

My point is that this doesn't happen and when it does there are legal consequences for the false accuser. The actual damage to one's life is caused by the assault. Do you think Rapp is making this up? People have been fearful of naming names for decades. So essentially you've gotten your way...people have shut up. Now look what's happened. The culture of abuse has been allowed to continue largely, in fact entirely, because of people like you.

[CaptainYooh]

Can't quote your post for some reason. I think it is caused by apostrophes.

PepsiFree


Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainYooh
I didn't say that at all. Accuse and prosecute legally, before doing it publicly. Public damage to one's life cannot be undone.

Nor can personal damage (which is what many of these who are suffering public damage caused), and with the high difficulty of getting legal closure especially 10, 20, or 30 years on, what would you have them do?

Obviously identifying the abuse immediately after it happens would be ideal, but you can’t go back and change history, so what would you do?

If you feel that after 30 years your time has come to seek justice, then go for it legally, first.

[photon]

I think it's also important to differentiate between guilty in a court of law and the evidentiary standards there and the freedom to employ, associate, etc, which doesn't have any evidentiary standards at all. We've all known creepy people who while have never been convicted of something, and "innocent until proven guilty" applies with regards to them going to jail, but it doesn't apply to me choosing not to be around them, hiring them, having them associated with my brand, etc.

The private nature of such interactions means that there'll never be a perfect system that can ensure justice while never having false positives, at least until everything everywhere is recorded. So the current climate should be compared to potential changes and their outcomes rather than a hypothetical ideal where it's possible to get it right all the time.

[CaptainYooh]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

...Do you think Rapp is making this up? ...

How do you know he doesn't? How do you know it has happened exactly as he describes it or recalls it now after 30 years?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by photon

I think it's also important to differentiate between guilty in a court of law and the evidentiary standards there and the freedom to employ, associate, etc, which doesn't have any evidentiary standards at all. We've all known creepy people who while have never been convicted of something, and "innocent until proven guilty" applies with regards to them going to jail, but it doesn't apply to me choosing not to be around them, hiring them, having them associated with my brand, etc.

We need to be careful where we go with this. We've seen that the mob can be pretty hasty when it comes to judging, shaming, and ostracizing people on the flimsiest of evidence or errors of judgement. There's something genuinely odious about social media shaming culture and the ugly impulses it gives free rein to.

And remember, if we tolerate extra-judicial bodies naming, firing, shaming, and excluding people who offend their moral beliefs, it means all kinds of groups with all kinds of different beliefs will exercise that power. You might think anyone accused of sexual harassment should be named, shamed, and fired. Someone else might think the same should be done to anyone who has been to prison. Or worked as a prostitute. Or cheated on a spouse.

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

How do you know he doesn't? How do you know it has happened exactly as he describes it or recalls it now after 30 years?

Why would he make this up? Like hey, let's go f with Kevin Spacey today. I believe what he's saying because the events of the night aren't really in question. He was at Spacey's house, alone, after a party, in his bedroom, and Spacey was drunk. I don't think that's being questioned. The rest is he said/he said except the he being accused hasn't said he didn't do it. The experience of being assaulted tends to remain with people as one of those moments you can't forget. So I believe Rapp. But again, you're not talking about false accusations. You're talking about what's provable in court. You're speculating about provable evidence not false accusations. What makes you think Rapp is just messing with Spacey and fabricating the whole thing?

[CaptainYooh]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

...What makes you think Rapp is just messing with Spacey and fabricating the whole thing?

I have no idea about what has happened, about why a 14-yr old boy was alone at an adult drunken party at night, about why Rapp didn't do anything about it for 30 years. Frankly, I am not that interested either. This - excessive drugs, alcohol, orgies - seems to be the publicly acceptable and admirable lifestyle of the celebrity entertainment world. It would be naive to assume that this lifestyle is not leading to some form of sexual discontent under elevated sexual pretenses.

The only point I am trying to make is that if anyone has been assaulted, he/she should charge lawfully before informing the media about it. The consequences of making cases like this public before the court decision is rendered should be severe for allegations that do not result in criminal charges proven in court. How could you argue against that?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

The only point I am trying to make is that if anyone has been assaulted, he/she should charge lawfully before informing the media about it. The consequences of making cases like this public before the court decision is rendered should be severe for allegations that do not result in criminal charges proven in court. How could you argue against that?

Because not being guilty of something is not the same as not having done that thing. Guilty in a legal sense requires evidence beyond “this is what happened.” Now, how strongly we react to information that cannot be dealt with in a court of law (this situation, for example) is up for debate, but if your solution is to deal with it in court or barring that possibility stay silent forever, then I don’t think that’s a fair or understanding solution for these people.

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

I have no idea about what has happened, about why a 14-yr old boy was alone at an adult drunken party at night, about why Rapp didn't do anything about it for 30 years. Frankly, I am not that interested either. This - excessive drugs, alcohol, orgies - seems to be the publicly acceptable and admirable lifestyle of the celebrity entertainment world. It would be naive to assume that this lifestyle is not leading to some form of sexual discontent under elevated sexual pretenses.

The only point I am trying to make is that if anyone has been assaulted, he/she should charge lawfully before informing the media about it. The consequences of making cases like this public before the court decision is rendered should be severe for allegations that do not result in criminal charges proven in court. How could you argue against that?

So what you're saying is that you would like a law that prevents people from talking about the private affairs and engagements they have with other people? Like if you slander someone, there should be consequences? Right? If someone harms your livelihood or business or personal life you should be able to bring charges against that person?

[CaptainYooh]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

So what you're saying is that you would like a law that prevents people from talking about the private affairs and engagements they have with other people? Like if you slander someone, there should be consequences? Right? If someone harms your livelihood or business or personal life you should be able to bring charges against that person?

We have this law already.

I feel we may have come to a point in a discussion where you're either not hearing what I'm saying right or twisting what I'm saying. Either or, it makes me not want to continue.

One more time, I believe that public accusations ahead of criminal charges should be unlawful and punishable, automatically. And yes, I understand that this may cause injustice to victims that want to tell their stories publicly without going to court.

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

We have this law already.

I feel we may have come to a point in a discussion where you're either not hearing what I'm saying right or twisting what I'm saying. Either or, it makes me not want to continue.

One more time, I believe that public accusations ahead of criminal charges should be unlawful and punishable, automatically. And yes, I understand that this may cause injustice to victims that want to tell their stories publicly without going to court.

No. I was hearing what you were saying. I just can't believe you're saying it. It's probably the least justifiable opinion I've ever heard about anything but its been good for a laugh. I'll shut up now before I go to yappers prison.

[CaptainYooh]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

... It's probably the least justifiable opinion I've ever heard about anything ...

Great closing statement, counsel.

I'm done too here.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

Why would he make this up? Like hey, let's go f with Kevin Spacey today. I believe what he's saying because the events of the night aren't really in question. He was at Spacey's house, alone, after a party, in his bedroom, and Spacey was drunk. I don't think that's being questioned. The rest is he said/he said except the he being accused hasn't said he didn't do it. The experience of being assaulted tends to remain with people as one of those moments you can't forget. So I believe Rapp. But again, you're not talking about false accusations. You're talking about what's provable in court. You're speculating about provable evidence not false accusations. What makes you think Rapp is just messing with Spacey and fabricating the whole thing?

When I was around 15 my geography teacher, a quite pleasant guy with no reputation amongst the kids, kept me back after class (last class of the day) to discuss my test results, he sat at a 45 degree angle to me and very earnestly gave me a bollocking for not doing well on a mid term, with his hand on my knee, his hand then worked its way up my thigh towards my crotch, it took him a couple of small moves to get to way to close to my junk for my comfort.
I at that point made an excuse about my bus and legged it for the door, I was fairly sure I was getting groped and was freaking out, got home never mentioned it to anyone until years later. The teacher never said anything inappropriate that I can recall (granted I wasn't listening to him that much I was just thinking 'what the 'eff is he doing with his hand!').
To this day I have no idea what the hell was going on, nothing ever happened like it to anyone else that I was aware of, he never did anything like it again, he never mentioned it or treated me in any way differently after.

To this day I can interpret the whole thing either way, maybe he was a perv', maybe he didn't realise how close to the crown jewels his hand was straying, beats the hell out of me as to which, I could go to the cops and claim he was trying to sexually assault me and believe it sincerely and be completely wrong and he'd have no way of defending himself either.