Arena negotiation discussion. UPD: Flames release their proposal

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by RM14

Yes I acknowledge I do not know all the facts.

[Cambardi]

Originally Posted by Redlan

The Spin Doctors that all the Anti-CSEC group are...you fail to see that people without children are still paying for schools on their taxes (even at provincial levels) and roads even if they live downtown and commute by foot/bike. The list goes on; I never go to the emergency room/hospital but yet I pay for habitual users of the system, or ones that choose vises that stain the system but refuse to adjust their lifestyle...the same people that claim it is free! It is so easy to put up your road block claims and never analyze what it actually means, I am going to refer to it as the Big Mac argument, yes it is a burger but it is any good... any real sustenance?

This is well thought out and completely valid. I agree almost entirely but I must say that I LOVE BIG MACS. I don't get them often but they are delicious.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Redlan

The Spin Doctors that all the Anti-CSEC group are...you fail to see that people without children are still paying for schools on their taxes (even at provincial levels) and roads even if they live downtown and commute by foot/bike. The list goes on; I never go to the emergency room/hospital but yet I pay for habitual users of the system, or ones that choose vises that stain the system but refuse to adjust their lifestyle...the same people that claim it is free! It is so easy to put up your road block claims and never analyze what it actually means, I am going to refer to it as the Big Mac argument, yes it is a burger but it is any good... any real sustenance?

How do people seriously type ridiculousness like this up and think that they're making good points?

[Flame On]

Originally Posted by nik-

How do people seriously type ridiculousness like this up and think that they're making good points?

How do people type stuff like this ridiculous non-response? Instead attacking the poster. Refute one point of what he said. One.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Flame On

How do people type stuff like this ridiculous non-response? Instead attacking the poster. Refute one point of what he said. One.

He's equating hospitals to a massive pro sports arena with a $70 plus dollar average ticket price and a multi million dollar annual TV deal.

If you need that refuted, there's no hope for you.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Flame On

How do people type stuff like this ridiculous non-response? Instead attacking the poster. Refute one point of what he said. One.

He is equating things universal healthcare with building a stadium for a bunch of billionaires. I mean unless he is a true believer of something like Anarcho-capitalism, that is a pretty loony comparison to take seriously.

[Izzle]

Originally Posted by nik-

He's equating hospitals to a massive pro sports arena with a $70 plus dollar average ticket price and a multi million dollar annual TV deal.

If you need that refuted, there's no hope for you.

There are some very fine necessities on both sides. On both sides.

[Flame On]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

I think the answer is C, the poster recognizes that subsidies are given to all kinds of businesses, institutions, organizations and for profit places. They also recognize that the solution to eliminating unnecessary subsidies is not to continue handing them out like candy without any sort of due diligence from our elected officials to ensure that they are worth the investment.

Or the solution is to realize that's life and it's asinine to think we are talking about eliminating subsidies across society.

[Canehdianman]

Like I said, mind boggling.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Canehdianman

Like I said, mind boggling.

You mean 'bottling.'

Everyone knows you cant get your mind in a 'Boggle' thats just nonsense.

[RM14]

Originally Posted by nik-

He's equating hospitals to a massive pro sports arena with a $70 plus dollar average ticket price and a multi million dollar annual TV deal.

If you need that refuted, there's no hope for you.

Dying people in hospitals need the Flames to feel good - (Ken King Equation)

[Redlan]

Originally Posted by Izzle

Could you outline how a Luxury item like the arena is the same as a necessity like a Hospital?

I mean Cancer is indiscriminate. It can happen to anyone.

LOL, I provided the exact response all the Anti-CSEC have been providing, a fly by Big Mac statement and they get up in arms. That how frustrating it is. My point still stands, we all pay for services in our taxes WE DO NOT USE. A Library (luxury), Transit (luxury), Parks (luxury), Swimming Pools (luxury)...I can go on! but lets turn a blind eye to those cause they do not support your position.

[Flame On]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

He is equating things universal healthcare with building a stadium for a bunch of billionaires. I mean unless he is a true believer of something like Anarcho-capitalism, that is a pretty loony comparison to take seriously.

No, he's making the point that this comes down to a sort of NIMBY for taxes from those that don't want to pay a dime more for something.
We've already established that there are countless subsidies across all walks of life, from for profit business to non profits.

He's making the case that this is just another example of taxation going on to things one don't necessarily use/agree with.
The ludicrousness is from those that seem to think the Flames are the first ever business to get funds from the City even though they're for profit.
Now having said all that the deal has to be fair and it sure hasn't been thus far, I grant you. But that's the negotiation, or it would be if the Flames didn't storm off in a huff.

[Izzle]

Originally Posted by Redlan

LOL, I provided the exact response all the Anti-CSEC have been providing, a fly by Big Mac statement and they get up in arms. That how frustrating it is. My point still stands, we all pay for services in our taxes WE DO NOT USE. A Library (luxury), Transit (luxury), Parks (luxury), Swimming Pools (luxury)...I can go on! but lets turn a blind eye to those cause they do not support your position.

Dude... For real??? You need to pay attention to this chart. For a modern functioning society to progress forward, you need libraries, transit, parks and swimming pools more than you want an arena.

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Flame On

Refute one point of what he said. One.

I once had a mentally ill person tell me that he was the legitimate Prime Minister of Canada because he was secretly ousted from office in 1978 by a cabal of cross-dressing homosexuals (Specifically Margaret Thatcher, Nancy Reagan, Barbara Bush, and Hillary Clinton) who secretly rule the world from an underground HQ beneath the Pentagon*... tell me, should I have refuted one point of what he said? One?

What he said doesn't need to be refuted because it's lunacy on it's face.

*This is actually a true story, it was 13 years ago on a Ctrain. The guy showed me his ID to prove he was who he said he was... John The Baptist (I kid you not... either his parents were cruel, he had a fake ID, or he legally changed his middle name to "The Baptist").

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Redlan

LOL, I provided the exact response all the Anti-CSEC have been providing, a fly by Big Mac statement and they get up in arms. That how frustrating it is. My point still stands, we all pay for services in our taxes WE DO NOT USE. A Library (luxury), Transit (luxury), Parks (luxury), Swimming Pools (luxury)...I can go on! but lets turn a blind eye to those cause they do not support your position.

There are studies showing the value of library spending. Spending on education is correlated with less crime, providing activity centres for kids again reduces societal costs in general though the link is much more tenuous here. But in general studies show spending money on the poor when they are kids pays for itself economically

There aren't any studies that exist that aren't written by a professional sports franchise showing the benefits. There isn't any studies showing that when a team leaves it hurts the economies of the cities they left.

If you actually are interested in having a debate on the value of various kinds of public spending I am open to it. I don't believe you are. However, if you are please provide the studies showing the harm of a team leaving the city based on an actual team leaving.

[Redlan]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

He is equating things universal healthcare with building a stadium for a bunch of billionaires. I mean unless he is a true believer of something like Anarcho-capitalism, that is a pretty loony comparison to take seriously.

See you do not get it....universal healthcare, there are so many issues with the bottomless pit that has become; if you think that it works in Canada then you are extremely naive. You just sum up my point and spin it without any actual thought...just make a flippant remark and be condescending. Why change, bully tactics don't work on me, especially from keyboard ninjas.

[Barnes]

Originally Posted by Parallex

I once had a mentally ill person tell me that he was the legitimate Prime Minister of Canada because he was secretly ousted from office in 1978 by a cabal of cross-dressing homosexuals (Specifically Margaret Thatcher, Nancy Reagan, Barbara Bush, and Hillary Clinton) who secretly rule the world from an underground HQ beneath the Pentagon*... tell me, should I have refuted one point of what he said? One?

What he said doesn't need to be refuted because it's lunacy on it's face.

*This is actually a true story, it was 13 years ago on a Ctrain. The guy showed me his ID to prove he was who he said he was... John The Baptist (I kid you not... either his parents were cruel, he had a fake ID, or he legally changed his middle name to "The Baptist").

Ha, I was thinking about this person last week. I actually missed my stop talking to him.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Barnes

Ha, I was thinking about this person last week. I actually missed my stop talking to him.

For Real?

[Scornfire]

Originally Posted by Redlan

LOL, I provided the exact response all the Anti-CSEC have been providing, a fly by Big Mac statement and they get up in arms. That how frustrating it is. My point still stands, we all pay for services in our taxes WE DO NOT USE. A Library (luxury), Transit (luxury), Parks (luxury), Swimming Pools (luxury)...I can go on! but lets turn a blind eye to those cause they do not support your position.

I have the option to use every single service you just listed, and any others you can. With few exception, there's no usage fee for any of it. That is not the case with the Flames, that would not be the case with a new Arena. I do not get to skate there, I do not get to even walk through the door without spending a large sum of money