[News] Flames place Shinkaruk, Poirier, and Wotherspoon on waivers UPD: All 3 clear

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Shinkaruk hasn't been able to take the next step to this point. So be it.

That does not make Granlund any better of a hockey player. There is no spot on the Flames roster for Granlund, so who cares?

I don't really get that argument at all. Granlund is most definitely a better player and the Flames could certainly use him in some capacity over Shinkaruk who simply can't even handle spot duty. His 19 goals would be welcome on almost any team in the league.

As for the waived players, doubt we lose any of them and if we do, it doesn't really matter. They haven't shown any ability to improve or take another step.

[Gizmo]

Hope Poirier's progress off the ice can translate to some real development for him this year. Would love nothing more than for him to earn an in-season call up instead of the usual Hamilton/Hathaway addition we grew accustomed to last year.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

I don't really get that argument at all. Granlund is most definitely a better player and the Flames could certainly use him in some capacity over Shinkaruk who simply can't even handle spot duty. His 19 goals would be welcome on almost any team in the league.

He wouldn't have 19 on the Flames, or many other teams for that matter is the point. Average player on bad team, there are a million examples

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

I don't really get that argument at all. Granlund is most definitely a better player and the Flames could certainly use him in some capacity over Shinkaruk who simply can't even handle spot duty. His 19 goals would be welcome on almost any team in the league.

On a lot of teams in the league he wouldn't get the ice time to score 19. For example in CGY he wouldn't get PP time over Gaudreau, Monahan, Versteeg, Ferland, Tkachuk, Bennett, Backlund and therefore likely wouldn't get any PP time.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

I don't really get that argument at all. Granlund is most definitely a better player and the Flames could certainly use him in some capacity over Shinkaruk who simply can't even handle spot duty. His 19 goals would be welcome on almost any team in the league.

As for the waived players, doubt we lose any of them and if we do, it doesn't really matter. They haven't shown any ability to improve or take another step.

I wasn't saying he isn't better than Shinkaruk, I was saying it doesn't make him better than he is. Shinkaruk's lack of progress does not make Granlund a good hockey player.

What he is is not good enough to make the Flames. And no, he would not have gotten 19 goals with the Flames, because he simply wouldn't have gotten the same opportunities.

Are you going to reduce Bennett's icetime and give it to Granlund?

[bubbsy]

I'm sure i'll get slammed for this, but i must ask....

Any reason to question our AHL system, regarding the growth and development of the prospects going thru our AHL system?

Some may point to Jankowski as the counter argument, but i suppose his NCAA experience has played a large role in preparing him for pro hockey.

This is a few camps in a row where our AHL prospects just simply don't seem like they have progressed to a point where they can actually play in the NHL....

[Erick Estrada]

I'm a little grossed out the Kulak and Bartkowski will be regulars on this team. We make fun of the Oilers blue line depth but I doubt either two of these guys make their bottom pairing. I know some people like Kulak but IMO he's an AHL talent. Sometimes he's looked like a barely adequate 6th guy and other times he looks like AHL fodder. Bartkowski is the type of player a team signs in the event they are decimated by blue line injuries and needs a warm body 7th defensemen and him playing any meaningful minutes is absolutely last resort. It certainly appears from my limited preseason viewing and what I have read that Andersson has been better than both of these guys. It's time for this organization to reward their young prospects for outplaying the scrubs and it's time for Andersson to get his NHL seasoning. While he may have some tough nights as all rookie defensemen do at least you know there will be a future payoff whereas with Kulak/Bartkowski the tough nights will define their NHL careers.

As for Shinkaruk he simply didn't have the game this preseason to make this team. When he clears waivers as expected its up to him to go work hard in the AHL in hopes of being rewarded as he's still only 22 and while it appears he's a long shot some of these guys can hang around long enough to at least become quality depth players. As for Poirier he simply needs to spend a year of hockey in a stable environment and hopefully he gets that in Stockton.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by dino7c

He wouldn't have 19 on the Flames, or many other teams for that matter is the point. Average player on bad team, there are a million examples

It's all about producing when you have the chance to do so. Guys like Brouwer did not on the Flames and a guy like Granlund did on the Canucks. He wouldn't have seen pp and second line minutes last year if he was no good as the OP was suggesting just as Brouwer was shuffled down the depth chart because he was ineffective.

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by Bingo

He signed later that night. No other team had a chance to talk to him.

I agree he wouldn't have been the guy to watch on July 1st, but they clearly wanted the guy and didn't want to wait for the window in case Calgary signed him.

You're right no other team had a chance, but agents know the market for their players.

If a guy is signing for $1 million before free agency opens, they know the market for their services is soft.

I think if Vegas was dead set on landing Engelland, they'd have gotten him in free agency pretty easily.

I would say its fair that Vegas didn't really want any of these waiver wire guys.

I think its fair to say that Calgary doesn't really want these guys. I guess Treliving wouldn't mind keeping them, but its unlikely he will lose sleep over it.

He didn't draft these guys after all.

[sempuki]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

I'm sure i'll get slammed for this, but i must ask....

Any reason to question our AHL system, regarding the growth and development of the prospects going thru our AHL system?

Some may point to Jankowski as the counter argument, but i suppose his NCAA experience has played a large role in preparing him for pro hockey.

This is a few camps in a row where our AHL prospects just simply don't seem like they have progressed to a point where they can actually play in the NHL....

**Most** prospects simply never make it. Sad fact of life. I don't think our AHL system is great, but we've graduated a lot of kids recently.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Treliving had mentioned on a few occasions that he was wanting to re-sign Engelland. The Vegas - Engelland connection is not to be glossed over here. Engelland lives there. Sure, they could have signed him on July 1st - maybe - but why risk it? I think there were better options on the Flames to select from in terms of value, but Engelland provides Vegas with a strong leader (like he was in Calgary - I remember even Hartley lauding Engelland's leadership right off the bat), a decent defensive guy and a guy that will help stick up for his team mates. I can totally understand why Vegas selected Engelland, and while I do think there was more value in selecting someone else, Engelland was also a 'sure thing'.

As for the waiver wire fodder, I hope they all clear. The only one at this point in time that I find expendable is Shinkaruk - I just don't see NHL upside to his game. He isn't fast enough, shifty enough, a good enough playmaker, etc... I just see a kid who doesn't really have that many strengths.

Poirier I think has shown a lot more, and I think that he will get some NHL time this year and take a big step as long as he maintains steadfast in his life change.

Regardless of what people believe, there is always a danger that another team takes a chance on a former 1st round pick who may benefit from a change of scenery, and/or a team that happened to have a bunch of injuries during the pre-season. Poirier is more likely in my opinion, but still should probably make it given how many prospects are being shuffled at this point in the season.

I hope that Wotherspoon clears as well. For as little as he shows in the NHL, he is really good in the AHL, and that helps stabilize pairs down there and allows other D to develop in a better environment. I think there is value in that, and that is why you often see AHL teams sign veteran AHL defencemen to AHL deals. It is disappointing to see Wotherspoon just not take that step forward, but at the same time he still holds value organizationally.

As for people being surprised that Gazdic is still here, I think that without a doubt he doesn't get sent down until the 11th hour when opening night rosters have to be finalized. I would be that he will get sent down at that time. I think there is a small chance (very small) that he stays on the team for the first few games. Calgary plays Edmonton, Winnipeg, Anaheim and then LA in 7 days. After that they play Ottawa, Vancouver, Carolina... I can see the thought process of playing around with the idea of keeping Gazdic up for the first 4 games and then sending him down, but I would bet the Flames send him down before the season starts. I just don't think they will sign a vet and then send him down right away, unless the signing was with a clear understanding that it would be AHL-only without much chance at all at the NHL.

Will be interesting to see what Treliving does with the 6th defencemen. I can see the Flames keeping Valimaki and Dube up for the first set of games, even just for practice, just to give them some experience, but they will probably be returned to junior before the season starts. Valimaki has looked good up until last night, but he is clearly not ready for the NHL right now, though he is close. Dube might be NHL-ready, but the Flames have more options there, and I think Dube can really get some great offensive development this season both on the Rockets and on Team Canada. I think he will get an expanded role this year on Team Canada, and be counted on to contribute offensively and defensively this time around rather than just defensively (which he excels at).

I think the only surprise to me was Kylington being sent down. I thought he was better than Kulak/Wotherspoon to me, and arguably better than Valimaki and Andersson. Kid is going to be an NHL'er soon.

If Kulak doesn't impress, either Andersson moves over to the left side, or I expect the Flames to pick up a 6th defencemen.

With Foo/Poirier/Shinkaruk not really looking ready, I wonder if Treliving doesn't look at who is left on the FA market and fills the spot externally? Jagr? Iginla? I think leaving a potential spot open for one of the kids to compete for it and potentially seize it, but that just didn't happen. The Flames have enough bodies that they don't have to grab anyone, but an injury or two and suddenly they may find themselves with two kids early into the season who aren't quite ready. I can see Treliving grabbing a 6th D off the waiver wire if they don't want Andersson playing the left side, and signing someone for the right side for depth.

[calgaryblood]

What does Bartkowski know about the team?

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by sempuki

**Most** prospects simply never make it. Sad fact of life. I don't think our AHL system is great, but we've graduated a lot of kids recently.

This is very true. Look at the numbers who make it:

50% in the first round.
25% in the second.
10-15% in all rounds thereafter.

And that's just the cutoff for playing 100-200 NHL games. Probably half or more of the guys that do make it, are replacement level players.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

You're right no other team had a chance, but agents know the market for their players.

If a guy is signing for $1 million before free agency opens, they know the market for their services is soft.

I think if Vegas was dead set on landing Engelland, they'd have gotten him in free agency pretty easily.

I would say its fair that Vegas didn't really want any of these waiver wire guys.

I think its fair to say that Calgary doesn't really want these guys. I guess Treliving wouldn't mind keeping them, but its unlikely he will lose sleep over it.

He didn't draft these guys after all.

There's really no need for you to be beating this drum when it's something you clearly have no way of knowing. You're not enlightening anyone here. Move on, it's an odd point / topic to get hung up on.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I wasn't saying he isn't better than Shinkaruk, I was saying it doesn't make him better than he is. Shinkaruk's lack of progress does not make Granlund a good hockey player.

What he is is not good enough to make the Flames. And no, he would not have gotten 19 goals with the Flames, because he simply wouldn't have gotten the same opportunities.

Are you going to reduce Bennett's icetime and give it to Granlund?

Now that's manufacturing a false argument if I've ever seen one. Who said anything about replacing Bennett?

You said that Granlund is no better than Shinkaruk and that certainly means what it sounds like it does no matter what way you spin it. A twenty goal scorer is a legitimate NHL player on any team. The Flames could certainly make room for him and it doesn't mean he has to score 20 goals again either.

I'd take him over much of the fodder in the bottom 6 that has plagued the Flames roster the last few seasons. At least you'd know he can step up and play a bigger role in a pinch than the likes of Brouwer, Stajan, Hamilton etc.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Treliving had mentioned on a few occasions that he was wanting to re-sign Engelland. The Vegas - Engelland connection is not to be glossed over here. Engelland lives there.

Yeah, the Engelland to Vegas rumblings were the worst kept secret in the League.

During his tenure in Calgary Engelland was one of my favourite Flames, but its hard not to move home and have a bigger role.

Treliving mentioned wanting to re-sign him, and I'm sure many of us wanted him to stay, but look at our blueline right now, do you really see any room for Engelland?

He'd be maybe, maybe 6th D. More likely Press Box.

I'm glad he went to Vegas where hes not going to rot eating Popcorn.

Godspeed Deryk! Keep on face-punching Canucks in the Desert!

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by sempuki

**Most** prospects simply never make it. Sad fact of life. I don't think our AHL system is great, but we've graduated a lot of kids recently.

So from our non-lottery level picks here are the players on the roster (or other rosters) that graduated from the flames AHL system in the past few years (i'm sure i'm missing others that may have made it elsewhere):
- Brodie
- Ferland
- Granlund
- Baertchi
- Hathaway

How do the flames compare with other orgs as far as AHL development to NHL players?

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

Now that's manufacturing a false argument if I've ever seen one. Who said anything about replacing Bennett?

You said that Granlund is no better than Shinkaruk and that certainly means what it sounds like it does no matter what way you spin it. A twenty goal scorer is a legitimate NHL player on any team. The Flames could certainly make room for him and it doesn't mean he has to score 20 goals again either.

I'd take him over much of the fodder in the bottom 6 that has plagued the Flames roster the last few seasons. At least you'd know he can step up and play a bigger role in a pinch than the likes of Brouwer, Stajan, Hamilton etc.

I disagree.

Hypothetically swap he and Shinkaruk right now (before this morning) and where do you slot Granlund in?

Wing of the 4th line? It makes us smaller and softer.

He's playing a bigger role on a very weak team that he wouldn't be afforded here.

No thanks.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

I disagree.

Hypothetically swap he and Shinkaruk right now (before this morning) and where do you slot Granlund in?

Wing of the 4th line? It makes us smaller and softer.

He's playing a bigger role on a very weak team that he wouldn't be afforded here.

No thanks.

It's ok to admit that the Canucks got the better of the deal...it happens from time to time. Judging by his game here, there is no way Shinkaruk even gets considered to play 17 min a game that Granlund saw last year. There's a baseline that certain players have to meet for coaches to even consider that kind of responsibility.

The logic being employed in this thread basically extends to reason that no bad team can have good players. Silly.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

Wing of the 4th line? It makes us smaller and softer.

Yeah because double digit goal scoring great PKers are a bad thing to have on the 4th line LW... Should load up on Tanner Glass and Luke Gazdic types rawr toughness