Ban organized religion, says Elton John

[kipperfan]

Originally Posted by Kobasew fan

Okay. First of all that's establish that the Bible is reliable. Lets start here because if you can't accept this you won't accept anything else I have to say.

The integrity of its historical and geographical record is supported by archeology. The accuracy with which it has been copied and handed down to us has been confirmed by the Dead Sea Scrolls of Qumran. Originating neither in the East nor the West, but in the Middle East--the cradle of civilization--the Bible continues to speak not only with spiritual power but with convincing prophetic accuracy.

I guess this is where we will differ because frankly I cannot find the bible as reliable based on what I have read to the contrary. But that is my oppinion, and I certainly dont look down my nose at you or others for thinking it is.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Azure

Ah, there we go.

[Kobasew fan]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Do explain.

Well if you really want to know, check out these links:

Prophecies fulfilled

More Prophecies fulfilled

[photon]

Originally Posted by Azure

There are Biblical references that numerous times state that God allowed divorce...for many reasons...but not remarriage.

Because our society is based around the secular viewpoint..and not a religious one. And because most of us want a complete seperation from Church and State.

And also because it isn't 'our' business what 'you' do at home, or in your personal life.

I was thinking of references in the NT.. So either someone who gets divorced must remain celibate and single, or they are in sin.. so modify my question then to be why doesn't the church campaign against getting married again.

Originally Posted by Kobasew fan

Religous people don't control the government. The government will legalize what they choose to. Again if someone chooses to get a divorce they will be sinning and choose to remarry, but this is there choice. Just because the laws are in place doesn't mean that I agree with them.

I think I was too vague with my question; I wasn't asking a why it is the way it is (I agree with seperation of church and state). I was asking why the church seems to be ok with being selective about what they pursue.
They spend tons of effort on one thing they think shouldn't be allowed in the law but ignore others.

[Crazy Flamer]

Originally Posted by Kobasew fan

Okay. First of all that's establish that the Bible is reliable. Lets start here because if you can't accept this you won't accept anything else I have to say.

The integrity of its historical and geographical record is supported by archeology. The accuracy with which it has been copied and handed down to us has been confirmed by the Dead Sea Scrolls of Qumran. Originating neither in the East nor the West, but in the Middle East--the cradle of civilization--the Bible continues to speak not only with spiritual power but with convincing prophetic accuracy.

I want you to establish for me just how the Bible is credible. To my knowledge, many historians argue that the Bible and its messages changes over the course of hisroty not because the message of God changed but due to societal views at the time. So in that instance, it really isn't God that writes the Bible, it was men who held certain socital beliefs in their time.

[Kobasew fan]

Originally Posted by Crazy Flamer

I want you to establish for me just how the Bible is credible. To my knowledge, many historians argue that the Bible and its messages changes over the course of hisroty not because the message of God changed but due to societal views at the time. So in that instance, it really isn't God that writes the Bible, it was men who held certain socital beliefs in their time.

I believe BornAgain mentioned this before that the Bible was written by men led by the Holy Spirit. If you really want to know if the bible is credible here are some links supporting its credibility.

Archeological Support

Scrolls

Of course there have been some adjustments to the Bible, however, the basis is still accuratly translated. The changes have been minimal.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Kobasew fan

I believe BornAgain mentioned this before that the Bible was written by men led by the Holy Spirit.

You and Joseph Smith would get along famously!

[Crazy Flamer]

Originally Posted by Kobasew fan

I believe BornAgain mentioned this before that the Bible was written by men led by the Holy Spirit. If you really want to know if the bible is credible here are some links supporting its credibility.

Archeological Support

Scrolls

Of course there have been some adjustments to the Bible, however, the basis is still accuratly translated. The changes have been minimal.

Your first link is to a Christian website. No doubt in my mind they are going to try to support the authenticity of the Bible. The second link leads me to a lot of information about the Dead Sea Scrolls, which pretty much everyone knew existed.

But even if some events in the Bible can be substantiated, which I'm sure has happened already, its the interpretation of the message of the Bible that is the real issue. And you can also argue the genuine intention of those who wrote it. There is no way to prove they were led by the Holy Spirit as appposed to being led by their own thirst for power, control and their rightful page in the history books.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Kobasew fan

Well if you really want to know, check out these links:

Prophecies fulfilled

More Prophecies fulfilled

Wow...I guess if you want to consider any of that Prophecy then go ahead and live the life...but I think RougeUnderoos and myself could come up with a few hundred prophecies to match any of those.

Heres a few anti-prophecies.

Prophecies, Promises, and Misquotes in the Bible

[Azure]

Originally Posted by photon

I was thinking of references in the NT.. So either someone who gets divorced must remain celibate and single, or they are in sin.. so modify my question then to be why doesn't the church campaign against getting married again.

Funny thing is...most churches don't have a problem with remarriage.

Again, we come back to the 'religion being used when it helps you' idea.

[Kobasew fan]

Originally Posted by Crazy Flamer

Your first link is to a Christian website. No doubt in my mind they are going to try to support the authenticity of the Bible. The second link leads me to a lot of information about the Dead Sea Scrolls, which pretty much everyone knew existed.

But even if some events in the Bible can be substantiated, which I'm sure has happened already, its the interpretation of the message of the Bible that is the real issue. And you can also argue the genuine intention of those who wrote it. There is no way to prove they were led by the Holy Spirit as appposed to being led by their own thirst for power, control and their rightful page in the history books.

This is where it comes back to an issue of having faith.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Kobasew fan

This is where it comes back to an issue of having faith.

Faith before Reason?

[Kobasew fan]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Wow...I guess if you want to consider any of that Prophecy then go ahead and live the life...but I think RougeUnderoos and myself could come up with a few hundred prophecies to match any of those.

Heres a few anti-prophecies.

Prophecies, Promises, and Misquotes in the Bible

Well Cheese. I guess we reach an impass. I can refute many if not all of the unfulfilled prophesies in your link but honestly do not have 15 - 20 hours to spend doing so. Even if I were to refute them you would want a link of some sort because you seem to always want evidence. Then it would come back to faith.

[Crazy Flamer]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Faith before Reason?

Sometimes, faith is the absence of reason.

[Kobasew fan]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Faith before Reason?

You don't get it Cheese. My faith is in God and revolves around what is written in the Bible. There is support for the Bible and that is where my reason comes in. Just because you don't accept my reasoning doesn't mean that it is wrong.

It is clear that you have faith in science and evolution (as depicted by your signature pic) and anything I say won't change your mind.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Azure

Funny thing is...most churches don't have a problem with remarriage.

Again, we come back to the 'religion being used when it helps you' idea.

Exactly, which is what I'm trying to find out about.. Large arguments are made by some religious organizations about gay marrige (in particular) to justify why they are trying to change the laws of a secular government. But given those arguments other laws should be under the same pressure from those same organizations. To me it seems that being selective just means that they have an agenda, same as everyone else

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by Crazy Flamer

Your first link is to a Christian website. No doubt in my mind they are going to try to support the authenticity of the Bible.

You bring up a pet peeve of mine. Why is anything a Christian site say immediately dismissed. Are only non believers allowed to testify about history or science in relationship to the Bible? Cheese can deny the existence of Jesus Christ even though many contemporary letters were written about him. The problem is these letters for the most part found their way into the Bible. We have first hand testimony from a variety of men and second hand testimony of people who watched these witnesses die without recanting but, they all happen to profess belief in the person and work of Jesus Christ. Of course there is no evidence if anyone who believes Jesus existed or the Bible is true automatically is disqualified from giving testimony. Thats like arguing in a court room that anyone who believes that defendant X is guilty of murder can not be relied on to testify against him. They are obviously biased.

[Crazy Flamer]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

You bring up a pet peeve of mine. Why is anything a Christian site say immediately dismissed. Are only non believers allowed to testify about history or science in relationship to the Bible? Cheese can deny the existence of Jesus Christ even though many contemporary letters were written about him. The problem is these letters for the most part found their way into the Bible. We have first hand testimony from a variety of men and second hand testimony of people who watched these witnesses die without recanting but, they all happen to profess belief in the person and work of Jesus Christ. Of course there is no evidence if anyone who believes Jesus existed or the Bible is true automatically is disqualified from giving testimony. Thats like arguing in a court room that anyone who believes that defendant X is guilty of murder can not be relied on to testify against him. They are obviously biased.

When a Christian website displays information on its website that has to do with supporting its views, it can be largely dismissed because the the huge motivating factor to prove itself right. Bias exists and therefore, the information presented is prejudicial and can be self serving. The information does not come form an objective source.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by photon

Exactly, which is what I'm trying to find out about.. Large arguments are made by some religious organizations about gay marrige (in particular) to justify why they are trying to change the laws of a secular government. But given those arguments other laws should be under the same pressure from those same organizations. To me it seems that being selective just means that they have an agenda, same as everyone else

There was opposition to allowing no fault divorce and there has even been an option just recently established in at least one State which would restricted no-fault divorce. Part of the reason same sex marriage is so high on Christian radar scenes is the fact it was introduced by an activist court rather than by a politician who is accountable to the people. Also, we recognize the trouble the family is in and a diluting of its privileges is just one more nail in the coffin.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by Crazy Flamer

When a Christian website displays information on its website that has to do with supporting its views, it can be largely dismissed because the the huge motivating factor to prove itself right. Bias exists and therefore, the information presented is prejudicial and can be self serving. The information does not come form an objective source.

So do you also dismiss views expressed by atheists because they are obviously biased?