Ban organized religion, says Elton John

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Cheese

You are 100% correct Azure...FAITH is religion. There is nothing else. I have never argued against that. I too have Faith...in mankind.
My point is not that religion itself is the motivation for wars, murders and terrorist attacks, but that religion is the principal label, and the most dangerous one, by which a "they" as opposed to a "we" can be identified at all. I am not even claiming that religion is the only label by which we identify the victims of our prejudice. There's also skin color, language, and social class. But often, as in Northern Ireland, these don't apply and religion is the only divisive label around. Even when it is not alone, religion is nearly always an incendiary ingredient in the mix as well.

I guess our only difference is that your faith...or my faith is placed on a different belief.

I agree on the last point above. Sad...but true.

[Kobasew fan]

Originally Posted by kipperfan

Yes of course evil acts will always be perpetrated throughout society. Fact remains religion and religous differences has played a major part in every major war ever fought on this planet in the past millenium. Your point is moot, yes people will commit violent acts that arent perpetreted by religion, but look at the millions if not billions of people who have died because of religion, you cant deny its role in the worlds suffering.

This where it comes to a difference in religions. But that is for another topic at another time.

You should also consider the good that religion has motivated if you are going to blame religion for its role in the worlds suffering. A few organizations that have helped with a religous base are:

Samaritans Purse

Salvation Army

World Vision

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Dion

I believe in a God.

I have faith that God exists.

I have no faith in organised religion. Too much condemming and less acceptance, not enough forgiveness, and tolerance. In a nut shell God would say organised religion is hypocritical.

I don't need organised religion to practice what I believe.

Again..you're stereotyping organized religion.

Just because Westboro Baptist church believes that mankind is going to hell because of the fact that we accept to a large degree 'fags' as they like to call them...does not mean ALL of the Baptist community is that way.

You should do some research on Phelps and his followers, and you quickly understand why they are such a sick, degenerate group of people.

[Kobasew fan]

Originally Posted by kipperfan

How can you tell me about Jesus when you cant even prove his existence?

This is where faith comes into play. If you arn't willing to even have any faith then my words fall on deaf ears.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Not sure what parallel your trying to draw here...are you suggesting that you can only be moral and do well if you are a theist?
Are you suggesting that I cant have Faith in mankind because of a few fruitloops?

Lets turn that around...are you saying I cannot have faith in religion because of a few fruitloops?

Not a few..I know...and no that comment isn't exactly pointed towards you Cheese...but I'm sure you get what I'm trying to say.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Kobasew fan

It isn't my place (or any Christians place) to judge people, however, as a Christian I am called to tell people about Jesus. This includes opposing things that are considered sins (ie. gay sex) and not just being quiet about it. If a person wants to have gay sex that is there choice, however, I won't say it is right. This is based upon my faith that God does exist and that he will be coming back and that whoever has not accepted Jesus may regret it.

So why isn't there a Christian movement to abolish divorce? Divorce is a sin (unless there is infidelity) and has a negative impact on families (breaks them up). Why isn't there a huge organized effort to make divorce illegal?

Why is it ok for some sins to be protected by laws (I can drink, smoke, glutton, fornicate legally), but others not?

EDIT: Why is it that in some cases the church is fine with holding their members to a seperate standard (which is fine) while in other cases they want to hold all of society to that standard?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by kipperfan

How can you tell me about Jesus when you cant even prove his existence?

Its called faith.

And I'm sure you already know the answer..so why keep asking?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by photon

So why isn't there a Christian movement to abolish divorce? Divorce is a sin (unless there is infidelity) and has a negative impact on families (breaks them up). Why isn't there a huge organized effort to make divorce illegal?

There are Biblical references that numerous times state that God allowed divorce...for many reasons...but not remarriage.

Why is it ok for some sins to be protected by laws (I can drink, smoke, glutton, fornicate legally), but others not?

Because our society is based around the secular viewpoint..and not a religious one. And because most of us want a complete seperation from Church and State.

And also because it isn't 'our' business what 'you' do at home, or in your personal life.

[kipperfan]

Originally Posted by Kobasew fan

This is where faith comes into play. If you arn't willing to even have any faith then my words fall on deaf ears.

Like I have said before faith is fine, but you must also use reason when discussing any topic, including this one. You say your role as a Christian is to spread the word of Jesus, but how can you expect someone like me to listen if you cant at least provide me with a fact based argument on why he did exist and what he did during his existence?

[kipperfan]

Originally Posted by Azure

Its called faith.

And I'm sure you already know the answer..so why keep asking?

I hear you. But you cant discount history, like I just posted, you have to mix in some reason with your faith or it is all very pie in the sky IMO.

[Kobasew fan]

Originally Posted by photon

So why isn't there a Christian movement to abolish divorce? Divorce is a sin (unless there is infidelity) and has a negative impact on families (breaks them up). Why isn't there a huge organized effort to make divorce illegal?

Why is it ok for some sins to be protected by laws (I can drink, smoke, glutton, fornicate legally), but others not?

EDIT: Why is it that in some cases the church is fine with holding their members to a seperate standard (which is fine) while in other cases they want to hold all of society to that standard?

Religous people don't control the government. The government will legalize what they choose to. Again if someone chooses to get a divorce they will be sinning and choose to remarry, but this is there choice. Just because the laws are in place doesn't mean that I agree with them.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Azure

Again..you're stereotyping organized religion.

Just because Westboro Baptist church believes that mankind is going to hell because of the fact that we accept to a large degree 'fags' as they like to call them...does not mean ALL of the Baptist community is that way.

You should do some research on Phelps and his followers, and you quickly understand why they are such a sick, degenerate group of people.

My leaving organised religion is based on my experiences with the church. Of course my views will be viewed as stereotyping.

And yes I know about Fred Phelps.

Leaving my feelings and biases aside you are correct not all religion is full of hate and bigotry.

[Kobasew fan]

Originally Posted by kipperfan

Like I have said before faith is fine, but you must also use reason when discussing any topic, including this one. You say your role as a Christian is to spread the word of Jesus, but how can you expect someone like me to listen if you cant at least provide me with a fact based argument on why he did exist and what he did during his existence?

Okay. First of all that's establish that the Bible is reliable. Lets start here because if you can't accept this you won't accept anything else I have to say.

The integrity of its historical and geographical record is supported by archeology. The accuracy with which it has been copied and handed down to us has been confirmed by the Dead Sea Scrolls of Qumran. Originating neither in the East nor the West, but in the Middle East--the cradle of civilization--the Bible continues to speak not only with spiritual power but with convincing prophetic accuracy.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Azure

Lets turn that around...are you saying I cannot have faith in religion because of a few fruitloops?

Not a few..I know...and no that comment isn't exactly pointed towards you Cheese...but I'm sure you get what I'm trying to say.

Circular logic Azure..
and still evasive of the question...does any theistic organization hold the reigns on morality? Can man be moral without religion? I know CalgaryBornAgain suggests not...how about you?
I think man is inherantly moral....that morality can be manipulated and used by people, organizations or groups for their benefit(S).

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Kobasew fan

Okay. First of all that's establish that the Bible is reliable. Lets start here because if you can't accept this you won't accept anything else I have to say.

The integrity of its historical and geographical record is supported by archeology. The accuracy with which it has been copied and handed down to us has been confirmed by the Dead Sea Scrolls of Qumran. Originating neither in the East nor the West, but in the Middle East--the cradle of civilization--the Bible continues to speak not only with spiritual power but with convincing prophetic accuracy.

Your first sentence discredits the rest of the paragraph...go back and read the posts in this thread and others to findout why.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

It is a misnomer, for certain. Though, as I have remarked frequently, you share many traits with fundamentalists. Particularaly extreme intolerance to other views, and a hatred of theism.

The point, which you so convienently ignored, as usual, is that extremists/fundamentalists are immune to any viewpoint they disagree with. Whether they are religious or athiest, or anything else.

Missed this Snake...and nope I dont hate anyone. You incorrectly assumed that. Intolerance to others views? Simply by asking for proof of anything? For requesting that they provide information on what they want to teach the children? How is that intolerant? I think that I am actually far more tolerant than say...CalgaryBorn.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Kobasew fan

--the Bible continues to speak not only with spiritual power but with convincing prophetic accuracy.

Do explain.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by kipperfan

I hear you. But you cant discount history, like I just posted, you have to mix in some reason with your faith or it is all very pie in the sky IMO.

Oh of course. I certainly don't disagree with that.

But in the end...the only thing that proves God exists is faith. And even that isn't 'proof.'

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Circular logic Azure..
and still evasive of the question...does any theistic organization hold the reigns on morality? Can man be moral without religion? I know CalgaryBornAgain suggests not...how about you?
I think man is inherantly moral....that morality can be manipulated and used by people, organizations or groups for their benefit(S).

Of course you can be moral without religion.

I know many people who live twice the lives..morally...in my eyes, and they have no ties to religion. Then I know people who live the sickest lifestyle..in my eyes...and consider themselves deeply religious.

But I don't let such people discount my belief or faith in God.

BTW..that was supposed to be circular logic.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Dion

My leaving organised religion is based on my experiences with the church. Of course my views will be viewed as stereotyping.

And yes I know about Fred Phelps.

Leaving my feelings and biases aside you are correct not all religion is full of hate and bigotry.

Ah, there we go.