[News] Ken King: Flames' owners no longer pursuing new arena with City of Calgary

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Cappy

Haha sorry, I think the wink emoji on this site is terrible and hard to recognize.

I understand the argument, I'm just not convinced that it justifies the dollar figure.

Oh, I agree that the notoriety of the City is far down the scale of factors. I also agree the economic argument is sketchy (though not as one-sided as you think.

The main arguments are based on simply whether it's a desired feature of the city and its residents and the market deals that are common for arenas (the City wants to push against the market, I know, but the owners probably figure that it's a reason to take their position).

Nenshi has said his "vision" is a revitalized Vic Park with an arena. OK, is the City willing to pay any money for that? I don't see loans or loan guarantees as a monetary contribution except to the extent they are interest free or something like that. Nenshi has said things about dollars being OK if there's a "benefit to the community". So both economics (mainly increase in property values in the area and therefore the tax base), and intangibles come into play. And if the City is serious about the Olympics, they can't expect owners to just contribute 100% to a facility that would be used in those games (or even in the bid).

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by transplant99

And on the flipside there are a bunch in this thread that dont live in Calgary that are sure willing to tell people how they shouldnt be spending their own tax money.

Never said otherwise. No matter what side of the argument you are on, an argument holds much more weight when you have financial skin in the game.

Originally Posted by New Era

Just wondering if your opinion meant less when it was my taxes paying for stuff and you were in a different country make your comments or this is a new attitude you have recently developed?

Correct, my comments mattered less then, just like yours do now.

[calgaryred]

Originally Posted by Aeneas

I too have travelled all over Europe. I have found most people know Calgary for Olympics, Stampede, mountains, and also the Flames.

A border guard in Slovakia once took a look at my passport (in the 90's) and yelled "Robert Reichel! Calgary Flames!"
He was very excited.

The people that know the Stampede surprise me the most. Didn't think it registered too much in Europe.

From my experiences with europeans most heard of Calgary because of the Olympics and Stampede, in the states its the Flames.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by New Era

Juvenile insults aside, tell me what you know about Guangzhou, China.

Where is the first place you are going to go to look for information? Is it on your computer and does it rhyme with noodle?

Which is more reliable? The anecdotal evidence from Cappy, or the most powerful search engine in the world?

Point made? Move along.

Do you think that google makes billions a year by just putting the common canned results or by learning their users and refining the results to cater to them?

Hint, it's the second.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by New Era

Juvenile insults aside, tell me what you know about Guangzhou, China.

Where is the first place you are going to go to look for information? Is it on your computer and does it rhyme with noodle?

Which is more reliable? The anecdotal evidence from Cappy, or the most powerful search engine in the world?

Point made? Move along.

Ummm. Google and noodle are not rhyming words. They would be considered near rhyming. Not sure how that affects your point.

[CroFlames]

I hate these two arena threads, yet I keep coming back. What is wrong with me?

[stone hands]

Originally Posted by New Era

Juvenile insults aside, tell me what you know about Guangzhou, China.

Where is the first place you are going to go to look for information? Is it on your computer and does it rhyme with noodle?

Point made. Move along.

Wikipedia, not the fourth or fifth suggested google search depending on where i am and what device i'm searching google from?

Do you not realize how idiotic your statement of suggested google searches is when it comes to notoriety worldwide? I dont think you grasp the scope of how inconsequential and silly that sounds, let alone how flawed it is based on how google presents searches based on a number of factors

[longsuffering]

I'm just sticking around to see how one sided CSEC's position has to be to push their "give them anything they want" supporters to reconsider.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Honestly what would these be to the average tax payer?

The answer to that is, based on $150,000,000 amortized over 30 years, and split amongst 900,000 tax payers, comes out to about 61 cents a month. Oh, and that is scheduled to be paid back over time as well.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Aeneas

I too have travelled all over Europe. I have found most people know Calgary for Olympics, Stampede, mountains, and also the Flames.

A border guard in Slovakia once took a look at my passport (in the 90's) and yelled "Robert Reichel! Calgary Flames!"
He was very excited.

The people that know the Stampede surprise me the most. Didn't think it registered too much in Europe.

I had Border Security at London Gatwick look at my passport, back to me and then he stamped it with a 'Go Flames Go.'

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by nik-

And what's your argument?

That people who live out of the taxpaying base on both sides of the equation are allowed to have a voice or both aren't?

Thought that was pretty clear.......apparently not.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

I hate these two arena threads, yet I keep coming back. What is wrong with me?

You think this is bad? Check out the hot takes on Facebook about the "Nenshi vs The Flames" posts.

Just type Nenshi Flames in the top bar and gaze into the abyss.

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by saillias

http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/i...read-the-shot/



I liked this article from Jason Markusoff. I think he gets it. The "But Edmonton" angle is just never gonna win me over.

That article hits the mark in so many ways. Places like Regina and Edmonton garner a good portion of their sense of place around the Riders and the Oilers. Deep down they know a lot of the positive notoriety they get nationally and internationally are connected to these teams as opposed to other aspects of their cities. Therefore it's more of a political risk for their city councils to not bend over for these teams.

I laugh at the prospect of an NHL owner thinking they can do better than operate in Calgary with a new arena 1/3 paid for by the city in a place like Quebec City or as the 5th string pro sports drawn in a place like Seattle.

A Canadian market with a metro population of 1.5 million, with the largest amount of per capita disposable income in the country, with the second highest amount of corporate head offices in the country, and with no professional sports competition for the sports entertainment dollar is not only a viable NHL market, but a top tier NHL market. Calgarians know this, and they also have not built up enough nostalgia for a mediocre performing franchise to demand their city council pay up to keep this particular NHL franchise.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

I'm just sticking around to see how one sided CSEC's position has to be to push their "give them anything they want" supporters to reconsider.

Me too...now who are those supporters exactly?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Never said otherwise. No matter what side of the argument you are on, an argument holds much more weight when you have financial skin in the game.

Thing is - how much real life financial skin do Calgary taxpayers even have? I get people saying "I don't want my taxes to go up". I suspect they say that no matter what the project is. But what is the real dollar value impact per household if, for example, the City just paid for 1/3 without a recovery? How much of that is offset by any increase to the tax base through East Village revitalization? I understand studies suggest the buildings don't "pay for themselves". OK, so what's the real life impact? Is it a $50 increase on a 3 bedroom house, or a $5000 increase?

[nik-]

Originally Posted by transplant99

That people who live out of the taxpaying base on both sides of the equation are allowed to have a voice or both aren't?

Thought that was pretty clear.......apparently not.

They should have a voice, but lets not pretend that their opinion matters equally. It's pretty easy to spend other people's money.

[442scotty]

If anyone is interested , Eric Duhatschek was on fan960 today at noon and gave a pretty good common sense take on the situation. I encourage people to listen to it (if its put up)

He warns that people who don't use common sense will disagree with his take on things lol.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

That article hits the mark in so many ways. Places like Regina and Edmonton garner a good portion of their sense of place around the Riders and the Oilers. Deep down they know a lot of the positive notoriety they get nationally and internationally are connected to these teams as opposed to other aspects of their cities. Therefore it's more of a political risk for their city councils to not bend over for these teams.

I laugh at the prospect of an NHL owner thinking they can do better than operate in Calgary with a new arena 1/3 paid for by the city in a place like Quebec City or as the 5th string pro sports drawn in a place like Seattle.

A Canadian market with a metro population of 1.5 million, with the largest amount of per capita disposable income in the country, with the second highest amount of corporate head offices in the country, and with no professional sports competition for the sports entertainment dollar is not only a viable NHL market, but a top tier NHL market. Calgarians know this, and they also have not built up enough nostalgia for a mediocre performing franchise to demand their city council pay up to keep this particular NHL franchise.

Bang on and why threats to move are so disingenuous.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by nik-

They should have a voice, but lets not pretend that their opinion matters equally. It's pretty easy to spend other people's money.

And my entire point was its pretty easy to tell them what to not spend their money on.

Thanks for agreeing.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

I laugh at the prospect of an NHL owner thinking they can do better than operate in Calgary with a new arena 1/3 paid for by the city in a place like Quebec City or as the 5th string pro sports drawn in a place like Seattle.

Define "paid for". Because so far I've just heard about loans/fronting the money, etc, but with a 100% repayment.