[News] Ken King: Flames' owners no longer pursuing new arena with City of Calgary

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by nik-

Hey guys, is this the thread where we throw out a bunch of vague, undefinable benefits?

no its the thread where you act like a smug #######

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by Table 5

An entertainment district is exactly what the City is pushing for. This is not a debate about wanting an arena, it's a debate about the funding model.

They are going to have to work with the Flames if they want that though and come to the plate like other cities have. They can't have their cake and eat it too, but tthat's what Nenshi is accustom to doing.

I'm no fan of Ken King either, but I don't think anyone would be able to work with Nenshi on a project that he clearly sees as his own and his own legacy.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

I call BS on that. There's no way the amount of civic pride I felt from Edmontonians would be replicated without that rink. Maybe they clean that neighbourhood up cheaper, but it would be nowhere near as vibrant. Go up to Edmonton for an event and see for yourself. You'll be surprised. The last time I stayed at the Sutton Place i thought I was going to get stabbed. when I went twice this summer it was people everywhere or having a good time.

Take a look at Eau Claire here in Calgary if you think slapping some
Buildings and condos up will turn an area around like a rink and entertainment district will.

Now take a look at East Village. No arena, and the place is shaping up to be fantastic. Even with helping to fund the library and the NMC, significantly less has been spent by CMLC on East Village than Edmonton spent.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by dino7c

no its the thread where you act like a smug #######

All I'm asking for is for people to stop the charade. Admit that they just want the city to pay for this arena because they want a new arena for their favorite sports team and stop trying to bull#### people with the same rehashed, incorrect, vague statements on the actual benefits in this.

That's all, just be honest with yourselves and with everyone else. It's a valid reason, not really a solid one, but valid. You just want a new home for your team regardless of it not making economic sense for a city. Cool. I'd rather see that than all the same old crap trotted out over and over.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

They are going to have to work with the Flames if they want that though and come to the plate like other cities have. They can't have their cake and eat it too, but tthat's what Nenshi is accustom to doing.



I'm no fan of Ken King either, but I don't think anyone would be able to work with Nenshi on a project that he clearly sees as his own and his own legacy.

How is basically offering them free land not giving the Flames a huge slice of cake? What other private business gets that treatment and complains that it's not fair?

Also, not sure there is anything wrong Nenshi with wanting a vibrant and financially healthy city as a legacy. Should we go back to the days of Al Duerr where nothing happened, or the days of Bronco, when things only happened for his developer buddies?

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

They are going to have to work with the Flames if they want that though and come to the plate like other cities have. They can't have their cake and eat it too, but tthat's what Nenshi is accustom to doing.

I'm no fan of Ken King either, but I don't think anyone would be able to work with Nenshi on a project that he clearly sees as his own and his own legacy.

Again, they can't work with the Flames if the Flames don't want to work. The city has literally been doing ALL the work towards getting a new arena done.

[SmoggyFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by nik-

All I'm asking for is for people to stop the charade. Admit that they just want the city to pay for this arena because they want a new arena for their favorite sports team and stop trying to bull#### people with the same rehashed, incorrect, vague statements on the actual benefits in this.

That's all, just be honest with yourselves and with everyone else. It's a valid reason, not really a solid one, but valid. You just want a new home for your team regardless of it not making economic sense for a city. Cool. I'd rather see that than all the same old crap trotted out over and over.

Guilty As charged.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Calgary needs a new arena with or without th Flames. So we can build it with or without their help once they eventually leave. The dick measuring contest really needs to stop, and In my Opinion the first step for this to happen is for council to stop the whole "Show us the public benefit" line. There is clearly a public benefit to a new arena in this city, a public benefit to and all the jobs the Flames create, to the charities they are behind, and covic pride.

So cut the BS and move on to what's fair for each side.

[DiracSpike]

I want a new arena for the city and the Flames to stay in Calgary because there are benefits to both. I don't want the city to pay for all of it, or even half of it, but I want some public money to go to the arena.

I believe there is too much benefit for both sides for a reasonable deal to not be struck, unfortunately like many others I don't believe King and Nenshi are the actors that can get us there.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

Now take a look at East Village. No arena, and the place is shaping up to be fantastic. Even with helping to fund the library and the NMC, significantly less has been spent by CMLC on East Village than Edmonton spent.

I don't think East Village is very impressive at all. A couple of condos and some
Empty restaurants and bars, some of which has already closed or scaled back. It has potential, but It's missing exactly what Edmonton has. An anchor tenant to bring everyone out.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

I don't think East Village is very impressive at all. A couple of condos and some
Empty restaurants and bars, some of which has already closed or scaled back. It has potential, but It's missing exactly what Edmonton has. An anchor tenant to bring everyone out.

Sounds like it needs an Arena a few blocks south of it. Perhaps as some sort of entertainment district.

[nik-]

Holy #### that's hilarious

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by Table 5

How is basically offering them free land not giving the Flames a huge slice of cake? What other private business gets that treatment and complains that it's not fair?

Also, not sure there is anything wrong Nenshi with wanting a vibrant and financially healthy city as a legacy. Should we go back to the days of Al Duerr where nothing happened, or the days of Bronco, when things only happened for his developer buddies?

There's nothing wrong with him wanting that, there's lots
Wrong with how Nenshi goes about getting what he wants. It's no secret he is a nightmare to deal with in council. Nenshi is used to getting exactly what he wants and throws a fit if he doesn't. He's not dealing with mom and dad who own a corner store here though, he's dealing with some of the most successful businessmen in Canada. It's really not a great dynamic for a deal.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by nik-

All I'm asking for is for people to stop the charade. Admit that they just want the city to pay for this arena because they want a new arena for their favorite sports team and stop trying to bull#### people with the same rehashed, incorrect, vague statements on the actual benefits in this.

That's all, just be honest with yourselves and with everyone else. It's a valid reason, not really a solid one, but valid. You just want a new home for your team regardless of it not making economic sense for a city. Cool. I'd rather see that than all the same old crap trotted out over and over.

Or maybe the city is gonna piss away our money anyway so I would rather it be for something I enjoy.

Honestly I rarely attend Flames games its the concerts I am more concerned about...I have spent more money in gas travelling up to Edmonton for shows than I would ever see on a tax bill.


Besides I have said from the start both sides are handling this poorly...there is a deal to be made with public and private funds. I just hate the "greedy owners" talk. They could have moved on long ago with this team was losing millions.

[calgarywinning]

I have had extensive dealings with the City of Calgary on many matters requiring fair and equitable issues. While i'm not targeting employee's, it's a management issue coming right from the mayor. They are downright entitled and are even working close with the provincial government to take away your current rights for property tax equitability and rights to control your fair share of property tax. I.e. they will have new rights to tax you very unfairly and this will be tabled very soon with the NDP government. This has an outreaching impact far beyond the arena debate, or "my taxpayer" dollars. It's blindly unchaining government to punish people who choose to own property or live in the City of Calgary. How did my property go up in a down market? Well because it's their number one way to generate revenue.

The mismanagement of this mayoral city government is a travesty. One city employee even bragged they had 90 lawyers on staff (as a threat to steamroll for an error they made). If they litigate they hire the best firm in the city. They are brutal, mean and nasty. This was not the Calgary way and previous regimes of city hall were much more equitable.

When Ken King says they had unproductive meetings, I know he is 100% right on that.

Meanwhile, the City has drastically year in and year account increased operating costs, bureaucratic levels with no end and the end citizen is not really reaping benefit from increased spending. The waste is unfathomable.

The other flip side of the coin is the majority owner. Who, himself, is hardcore and unwilling to bend.

TO me it's very clear what needs to go on in an arena deal. Instead of corrupt olympic bids (isn't it funny corrupt people attract to corrupt people) keep it closer to home. The proposition of 1/3 owner, 1/3 ticket tax and 1/3 city funding is the ultimate hybrid to a solution.

The city recoups in that they can end up with ownership of the building in property in due time, in the re-development of whatever area and the new taxation streams created by it. While boosting the economy, building in an economically fiscal time and producing something which can be enjoyed for decades. These projects have been happening around the City even in down time and have been ill-focused.

So whether you are for taxpayer money funding an arena or not, you need to be very aware that the City of Calgary is wholly fiscally un responsible, is about to punish property owners with unfair taxation policies and probably put up some more crappy art.

Like it or not, the existing Saddledome, in it's current stay of decay and age was a gathering place, a city symbol of pride and has hosted thousands and thousands of events that have enhanced our community. Whether you like hockey, don't like hockey, like music, don't like music, like olympics don't like olympics. The economic benefits of the team, their gifts to foundations and player time towards charity events enhance our community. A modern arena is a continued extension of this for decades and future generations to come.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Sounds like it needs an Arena a few blocks south of it. Perhaps as some sort of entertainment district.

Yup for sure, but they need to accept they are going to have to pay for a decent portion of it, especially since their prospective partner for some strange reason wants to use another location. Just giving them land isn't going to cut it.

Without an entertainment district, East Village could become another Eau Claire in my opinion. No reason to live or be there if there's only Stupid Bell and a couple of mediocre restaurants.

[nik-]

Hey, remember when the very first move in this entire saga was the Flames end running council to rush out a half baked proposal direct to the public to try and capitalize on the public emotion following a playoff series win? And then when that went over like a lead balloon they started to publicly declare that they needed a partner in this in the city?

Let's not ignore the fact that the Flames pretty much immediately poisoned the well in this process. Successful businessmen or not, their point man on this has been totally brutal.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by nik-

Hey, remember when the very first move in this entire saga was the Flames end running council to rush out a half baked proposal direct to the public to try and capitalize on the public emotion following a playoff series win? And then when that went over like a lead balloon they started to publicly declare that they needed a partner in this in the city?

Let's not ignore the fact that the Flames pretty much immediately poisoned the well in this process. Successful businessmen or not, their point man on this has been totally brutal.

Do you remember that before they even brought out their horrible Presentation, Nenshi was telling anyone who would listen that they aren't going to be getting public money for An arena?

CalgaryNEXT was terrible, but I think it's easy to see why the Flames felt they needed to try to get the public on board. The mayor has basically been flipping them the bird for several years through the media and his twitter account.

[CampbellsTransgressions]

Good:

Exorbitant hockey rinks for millionaires to play on

Bad:

Cancer hospitals

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

Yup for sure, but they need to accept they are going to have to pay for a decent portion of it, especially since their prospective partner for some strange reason wants to use another location. Just giving them land isn't going to cut it.

If the Flames want to call all the shots and make all the decisions, they can buy their own land and build it however they see fit. If they want monetary help, it's only fair that the other partner has conditions.