Theresa May on London attacks: Enough is Enough

[Looch City]

Originally Posted by Cheese

so none of those items listed are tenets of Sharia?

Is this a better rag?
https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com...ets-of-sharia/

or this?
https://counterjihadreport.com/2014/...ts-of-shariah/

or this
http://www.answering-islam.org/Autho...en_top_ten.htm

Oh please. I, too, could find a bunch of anti-cheese websites and claim them to be my source for why cheese is nothing but bacteria that causes sickness and disease.

My point is find a credible source, not these obvious ultra-right websites.

This is religion we're talking about. There are a million ways to interpret it and people can easily twist it to fit their view.

For example:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religi...sharia_1.shtml

Many people, including Muslims, misunderstand Sharia. It's often associated with the amputation of limbs, death by stoning, lashes and other medieval punishments. Because of this, it is sometimes thought of as draconian. Some people in the West view Sharia as archaic and unfair social ideas that are imposed upon people who live in Sharia-controlled countires.

Many Muslims, however, hold a different view. In the Islamic tradition Sharia is seen as something that nurtures humanity. They see the Sharia not in the light of something primitive but as something divinely revealed. In a society where social problems are endemic, Sharia frees humanity to realise its individual potential.

[I won't quote all of it, but it goes into more details and paints a lighter picture than what you quoted].

[Cheese]

you never answered my question. Are any of the items on the list I provided part of Sharia? If yes which ones?

[Itse]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The great political struggle today is between liberalism and authoritarianism.

I would say "authoritarian conservatism", and honestly a lot of it is flirting heavily with fascism. But apart from using slightly different words, this part I very much agree with.

The authoritarian right and authoritarian left are mirror images of one another.

This part I don't agree with. There is no "authoritarian" left. There are people among the "liberals" who aren't really liberals and have some really regressive ideas, but they are not authoritarians in the same sense that the conservatives are.

In other words: the horseshoe theory is BS.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Religious anything cannot and should not be coded into law in any free society. People who want a Sharia court should continue to live in hellish places that adhere to Sharia law, not London.

You mean except when it is Judeo-Christian norms and when Christians do it in countries like the US? Make no mistake, the only reason there hasn't been more violence in the US is because the majority of our law complies with the social norms of our resident wackjobs.

Originally Posted by Cheese

Your are correct of course, but deflecting away from the topic.
Sharia Law.
None of these traditions have any place in modern society and would be gone in a generation if its inherants were allowed true freedom to express themselves and educate.

Not deflecting at all Cheese, just pointing out that extremism exists in all religions, and it only takes certain motivation to push someone over the edge.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Of course an Imam doesnt have to follow all of these.

It's worth noting:
1. All of those statements represent interpretations, not direct quotes or instructions, which is problematic in itself.
2. Every religious text produced hundreds and hundreds of years ago includes views and instructions appropriate to the time they were produced, the Qu'ran is not unique in this regard.
3. Not only does an Imam "not have to follow all of these rules," they're not even rules that need to be interpreted and followed verbatim at all. The problem is that some people still do, not that these words exist. Again, Christianity has done a pretty good job ignoring the ridiculous and poisonous instructions in the Bible, and Western Muslims are doing that very same thing more and more as they're introduced to modern liberal cultures, so that's a good thing.

I'm not sure what your solution to "holy books say bad things" is, because you're not banning them and the education that can actually be implemented by western cultures is already happening. Again, the modern interpretation of Sharia is one that is loving and peaceful, as rejecting corporal punishment and embracing equality is becoming increasingly common. I don't think there's any issue with someone who believes in equal rights and liberal values observing Ramadan, do you? Outside of the end game of eliminating all religion, what forward movement (that isn't already happening in the West) do you actually propose from a Western perspective?

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Cheese

you never answered my question. Are any of the items on the list I provided part of Sharia? If yes which ones?

You can find similar excerpts in all major religions. The old testament is full of laws about stoning people, "putting people to death", or "passing people through the fire".

The issue isn't with Islam generally. There is most certainly an extremist political movement within some interpretations of Islam though. As others have stated it's innocent Muslims who are typically the victims of this extremism.

[Looch City]

Originally Posted by Cheese

you never answered my question. Are any of the items on the list I provided part of Sharia? If yes which ones?

I don't know, it's up to how you interpret the text. Which is basically all religions.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by blankall

You can find similar excerpts in all major religions. The old testament is full of laws about stoning people, "putting people to death", or "passing people through the fire".

The issue isn't with Islam generally. There is most certainly an extremist political movement within some interpretations of Islam though. As others have stated it's innocent Muslims who are typically the victims of this extremism.

Again, deflection. We arent talking about other religions, and even if we were, just because one religion has similar tenets does it make it ok for yours? After all these are supposedly religions of peace and love, right? There is no way that Holy Books can be misunderstood as they are written by Gods? An interpretation of the Quaran at its strictest would be the standard wouldn't it?
If I look to those who were part of the Muslim religion who are not now, what would they say? How about Ayaan Hirsi Ali? Is she an apostate?

[photon]

Polls on views of Muslims around the world on various things (like should Sharia apply to non-Muslims, cutting off the right hand for theft, etc).

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/t...-about-sharia/

There's quite a lot of variation depending on the country. I would be interested to see the same poll of Muslims in the US or Europe.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by New Era

You mean except when it is Judeo-Christian norms and when Christians do it in countries like the US? Make no mistake, the only reason there hasn't been more violence in the US is because the majority of our law complies with the social norms of our resident wackjobs.

No. It`s because when a literal interpretation of the bible comes into conflict with the secular laws of the land, American Christians pursue their aims through elections and the courts. And while they`re not happy when the courts rule against them, they do not reject the legitimacy of those courts or the constitution.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by photon

Polls on views of Muslims around the world on various things (like should Sharia apply to non-Muslims, cutting off the right hand for theft, etc).

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/t...-about-sharia/

There's quite a lot of variation depending on the country. I would be interested to see the same poll of Muslims in the US or Europe.

so based on this we can say that at least some of the above list I posted is correct:

Among those who want sharia to be the law of the land, in 10 of 20 countries where there are adequate samples for analysis at least half say they support penalties such as whippings or cutting off the hands of thieves and robbers.17 In South Asia, Pakistani and Afghan Muslims clearly support hudud punishments (see Glossary). In both countries, more than eight-in-ten Muslims who favor making sharia the official law of the land also back these types of penalties for theft and robbery (88% in Pakistan and 81% in Afghanistan)

In 10 of 20 countries where there are adequate samples for analysis, at least half of Muslims who favor making sharia the law of the land also favor stoning unfaithful spouses.

Compared with attitudes toward applying sharia in the domestic or criminal spheres, Muslims in the countries surveyed are significantly less supportive of the death penalty for converts.19 Nevertheless, in six of the 20 countries where there are adequate samples for analysis, at least half of those who favor making Islamic law the official law also support executing apostates.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

A Sharia "court" does not imply the above, nor does it make sense that it should not be available to people in western society. While I agree that Sharia should not dictate actual law, lumping people who believe in the value of Sharia or Sharia tribunals with those that believe Sharia should dictate actual law which applies to all people is incorrect as they're completely different things.

Further, you live in Canada, yes? You're aware of Christianity's heavy influence on our charter of rights and freedoms?

Religious courts should be outlawed. Full stop. Laws that govern your society are legislated by elected representatives, discussed in an open forum, and rejected or accepted on their merits.

Tribunals or courts outside the system inherently undermine it. We have lots of avenues to pursue disagreements in western cultures.

And Christian influence on our Charter is one thing - I can leave Canada, marry an Indonesian, say ####ty things about Canada, renounce my citizenship, be a victim of sexual assault, lots of things that under Sharia law would be forbidden.

Separation of church and state is there for a reason.

[photon]

To me that there's variation from country to country says that there's more to people's attitudes than simply what's written in the source holy text.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

No. It`s because when a literal interpretation of the bible comes into conflict with the secular laws of the land, American Christians pursue their aims through elections and the courts. And while they`re not happy when the courts rule against them, they do not reject the legitimacy of those courts or the constitution.

There have been plenty of anti-abortionists who have rejected the decisions of courts and politicians. Many have resorted to violence.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by photon

To me that there's variation from country to country says that there's more to people's attitudes than simply what's written in the source holy text.

I found Tunisia interesting for example. A cleary ajority thinks Sharia is the revealed word of God (as opposed to interpreted by humans), and yet an even bigger clear majority thinks there's multiple interpretations to it (as opposed to a single interpretation).

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

No. It`s because when a literal interpretation of the bible comes into conflict with the secular laws of the land, American Christians pursue their aims through elections and the courts. And while they`re not happy when the courts rule against them, they do not reject the legitimacy of those courts or the constitution.

Bull. See the anti-abortion and anti-taxation movements. I wish the media would cover both with the same zeal they do the Islamist threat.

[nik-]

When was the last time 100 people were blown up at an anti-taxation protest?

Equal coverage would likely occur with equal outcomes.

[Cheese]

https://www.facebook.com/iTrustScien...9602935394425/

[blankall]

Originally Posted by New Era

Bull. See the anti-abortion and anti-taxation movements. I wish the media would cover both with the same zeal they do the Islamist threat.

I don't think it's the media's fault. Unless you work or attend at an abortion clinic, you are not at risk of violence from anti-abortionists. When you hear about an attack, you are likely to care less.

When you hear about people being attacked in London, you consider yourself at risk, as these are attacks that target the general public.

So, it has nothing to do with the media, but instead the reaction from the audience, which is the general public. When an attack targets the general public, the general public cares more. For example, when Elliot Rodger attacked random people, that was all over the news for weeks.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Cheese

[/I]According to Sharia law:
• Theft is punishable by amputation of the right hand (above).
• Criticizing or denying any part of the Quran is punishable by death.
• Criticizing Muhammad or denying that he is a prophet is punishable by death.
• Criticizing or denying Allah is punishable by death (see Allah moon god).
• A Muslim who becomes a non-Muslim is punishable by death (compulsion in religion).
• A non-Muslim who leads a Muslim away from Islam is punishable by death.
• A non-Muslim man who marries a Muslim woman is punishable by death.
• A man can marry an infant girl and consummate the marriage when she is 9 years old.
• Girls' clitoris should be cut (Muhammad's words, Book 41, Kitab Al-Adab, Hadith 5251).
• A woman can have 1 husband, who can have up to 4 wives; Muhammad can have more.
• A man can beat his wife for insubordination (see Religion of Peace).
• A man can unilaterally divorce his wife; a woman needs her husband's consent to divorce.
• A divorced wife loses custody of all children over 6 years of age or when they exceed it.
• Testimonies of four male witnesses are required to prove rape against a woman.
• A woman who has been raped cannot testify in court against her rapist(s).
• A woman's testimony in court, allowed in property cases, carries ½ the weight of a man's.
• A female heir inherits half of what a male heir inherits (see Errors in Quran).
• A woman cannot drive a car, as it leads to fitnah (upheaval).
• A woman cannot speak alone to a man who is not her husband or relative.
• Meat to eat must come from animals that have been sacrificed to Allah - i.e., be "Halal".
• Muslims should engage in Taqiyya and lie to non-Muslims to advance Islam.

Of course an Imam doesnt have to follow all of these.

Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Sudan and Mauritania all follow the strict doctrine of Sharia. that's over 400 million people brainwashed into this "law"

There's also plenty more countries that have regional variations of this sick and twisted word of "god"

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

It's worth noting:
1. All of those statements represent interpretations, not direct quotes or instructions, which is problematic in itself.
2. Every religious text produced hundreds and hundreds of years ago includes views and instructions appropriate to the time they were produced, the Qu'ran is not unique in this regard.
3. Not only does an Imam "not have to follow all of these rules," they're not even rules that need to be interpreted and followed verbatim at all. The problem is that some people still do, not that these words exist. Again, Christianity has done a pretty good job ignoring the ridiculous and poisonous instructions in the Bible, and Western Muslims are doing that very same thing more and more as they're introduced to modern liberal cultures, so that's a good thing.

I'm not sure what your solution to "holy books say bad things" is, because you're not banning them and the education that can actually be implemented by western cultures is already happening. Again, the modern interpretation of Sharia is one that is loving and peaceful, as rejecting corporal punishment and embracing equality is becoming increasingly common. I don't think there's any issue with someone who believes in equal rights and liberal values observing Ramadan, do you? Outside of the end game of eliminating all religion, what forward movement (that isn't already happening in the West) do you actually propose from a Western perspective?

Sharia law cannot and will not ever mix with western society, Islam needs a reformation away from this garbage or this segregation and violence will never end.

Anyone who wants to practice this trash needs to move back to the middle east.