I'm pretty sure we agree, if you want to keep up with the "there are bad parts of Islam too" thing you're not going to find someone who disagrees with you here, my post was just about what Sharia represents to the modern Muslim in response to the bigoted "evil! Perverse! Etc etc" posts. As in: it's not all bad. And it's nice if you know that but some people pretty clearly don't (and my original post wasn't directed at you anyways).
It might not seem fruitful to respond to hate like that, but I don't really mind. I was just surprised you called the progressive Muslim view of Sharia "shameful" and out of touch with reality. Considering Sharia is open to interpretation as a moral guide to life, it seems logical to me to condemn the violent, hateful interpretations while leaving plenty of room to celebrate and support those who push the peaceful, loving interpretation. I think that's the best situation we can hope for since it's the step that comes long before people start letting go of religion.
But if this is some "religion is bad so even good, progressive religious people are bad" then you can have at it and count me out of the conversation as "agree to disagree."
The highlighted section above is what worries people. Its not those who use interpretation for positive intentions.
Not as a comment to anyone specifically, but I find myself noticing that ultra-conservatism seems to be on the rise everywhere.
From US to Russia and Europe to the Muslim world...
Modernity is proving incredibly disruptive and causing anxiety all over the world. Authoritarian credos - across the political spectrum - have become more appealing as people look for something firm and unwavering to attach themselves to.
All of the major religions have similar traditions. Whether is be rabbinical or halahka law, canon or ecclesiastical law, similar traditions exist. Enforcement of such law is dependent of the level of devotion to your particular belief.
Isn't that true of all religions, especially those who take their belief to extremes?
Religious anything cannot and should not be coded into law in any free society. People who want a Sharia court should continue to live in hellish places that adhere to Sharia law, not London.
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Modernity is proving incredibly disruptive and causing anxiety all over the world. Authoritarian credos - across the political spectrum - have become more appealing as people look for something firm and unwavering to attach themselves to.
That's probably one part of it, but there's likely to be more.
In the west it's also probably push back to what has been a good couple of decades for liberal values. (The stomping down on racist and sexists public speech, gay rights making huge leaps, various subcultures such as metal or BDSM becoming more accepted...) It might very well be a somewhat temporary push back, as many political divides are essentially between age groups. (Played a big part in Brexit for example).
By "temporary" I mean "will pass in a decade or two".
Not as a comment to anyone specifically, but I find myself noticing that ultra-conservatism seems to be on the rise everywhere.
From US to Russia and Europe to the Muslim world...
It depends on what the definition of conservatism or ultra conservatism is.
Countries have always moved back and forth along the political right-left spectrum.
Is the left so far to the left now and anything sort of in the center is considered ultra-conservatism?
For example, immigration policy isn't a racist or conservative/liberal issue. But it's turned into one now.
Or as you mentioned above, gay rights. It used to not be an issue, everyone was against it. Now the left is for it and the right remains against it so what was the norm before is now ultra-conservative. I don't think conservatism as moved very much.
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Last edited by GirlySports; 06-05-2017 at 11:59 AM.
All of the major religions have similar traditions. Whether is be rabbinical or halahka law, canon or ecclesiastical law, similar traditions exist. Enforcement of such law is dependent of the level of devotion to your particular belief.
Your are correct of course, but deflecting away from the topic.
Sharia Law.
None of these traditions have any place in modern society and would be gone in a generation if its inherants were allowed true freedom to express themselves and educate.
Religious anything cannot and should not be coded into law in any free society. People who want a Sharia court should continue to live in hellish places that adhere to Sharia law, not London.
A Sharia "court" does not imply the above, nor does it make sense that it should not be available to people in western society. While I agree that Sharia should not dictate actual law, lumping people who believe in the value of Sharia or Sharia tribunals with those that believe Sharia should dictate actual law which applies to all people is incorrect as they're completely different things.
Further, you live in Canada, yes? You're aware of Christianity's heavy influence on our charter of rights and freedoms?
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http://www.billionbibles.org/sharia/sharia-law.html Sharia law is the law of Islam. The Sharia (also spelled Shariah or Shari'a) law is cast from the actions and words of Muhammad, which are called "Sunnah," and the Quran, which he dictated. Sharia law itself cannot be altered but the interpretation of Sharia law, called "figh," by imams is given some latitude.
According to Sharia law: • Theft is punishable by amputation of the right hand (above).
• Criticizing or denying any part of the Quran is punishable by death.
• Criticizing Muhammad or denying that he is a prophet is punishable by death.
• Criticizing or denying Allah is punishable by death (see Allah moon god).
• A Muslim who becomes a non-Muslim is punishable by death (compulsion in religion).
• A non-Muslim who leads a Muslim away from Islam is punishable by death.
• A non-Muslim man who marries a Muslim woman is punishable by death.
• A man can marry an infant girl and consummate the marriage when she is 9 years old.
• Girls' clitoris should be cut (Muhammad's words, Book 41, Kitab Al-Adab, Hadith 5251).
• A woman can have 1 husband, who can have up to 4 wives; Muhammad can have more.
• A man can beat his wife for insubordination (see Religion of Peace).
• A man can unilaterally divorce his wife; a woman needs her husband's consent to divorce.
• A divorced wife loses custody of all children over 6 years of age or when they exceed it.
• Testimonies of four male witnesses are required to prove rape against a woman.
• A woman who has been raped cannot testify in court against her rapist(s).
• A woman's testimony in court, allowed in property cases, carries ½ the weight of a man's.
• A female heir inherits half of what a male heir inherits (see Errors in Quran).
• A woman cannot drive a car, as it leads to fitnah (upheaval).
• A woman cannot speak alone to a man who is not her husband or relative.
• Meat to eat must come from animals that have been sacrificed to Allah - i.e., be "Halal".
• Muslims should engage in Taqiyya and lie to non-Muslims to advance Islam.
Of course an Imam doesnt have to follow all of these.
A Sharia "court" does not imply the above, nor does it make sense that it should not be available to people in western society. While I agree that Sharia should not dictate actual law, lumping people who believe in the value of Sharia or Sharia tribunals with those that believe Sharia should dictate actual law which applies to all people is incorrect as they're completely different things.
Further, you live in Canada, yes? You're aware of Christianity's heavy influence on our charter of rights and freedoms?
Your deflecting again. This is about Sharia Law. Besides having the words in God we trust on money doesnt promote hatred or incur the lopping of ones hand for theft.
This is getting ridiculous. Terrorism is a tactical strategy, not part of any religion or even ideology. It's a tactic for those without a military to inflict damage against their foe.
I'm not even sure of what the motivation would be to say something something so off the mark. That is exactly how to get people, albeit insane people to perform such acts.
I see that Sam Harris has already been posted, but this particular clip is especially pertinent.
Last edited by Engine09; 06-05-2017 at 12:27 PM.
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http://www.billionbibles.org/sharia/sharia-law.html
[I]Sharia law is the law of Islam. The Sharia (also spelled Shariah or Shari'a) law is cast from the actions and words of Muhammad, which are called "Sunnah," and the Quran, which he dictated. Sharia law itself cannot be altered but the interpretation of Sharia law, called "figh," by imams is given some latitude.
Jesus Christ, what kind of a website is that?? Might as well source it from Bannon himself...
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In the west it's also probably push back to what has been a good couple of decades for liberal values. (The stomping down on racist and sexists public speech, gay rights making huge leaps, various subcultures such as metal or BDSM becoming more accepted...) It might very well be a somewhat temporary push back, as many political divides are essentially between age groups. (Played a big part in Brexit for example).
The great political struggle today is between liberalism and authoritarianism. The authoritarian right and authoritarian left are mirror images of one another, and polarisation is inflaming both. Both view people in terms of group identities, not as individuals. Both readily sacrifice freedom in exchange for security. Both see politics as essentially a moral crusade to bring all of society into conformity with their dogma.
Liberalism has faced this threat from both sides before, and won out (at least in the Anglo world). I`m betting it will win out again, though dreadful damage will be dealt to our institutions.
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