[News] Flames sign Treliving to multi year contract extension

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Mister Yamoto

Would it be too out of the box to just let whoever the next starter is hire his own coach?

Yes. That is insane.

[Toonage]

^
Sounds like a job for Adam Oates.
(Players hired him on their own dime and he'd work out with them against club wishes, I know he isn't a goalie coach...)

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

That's a more fair way of evaluating him.
I just think the narrative that goalies diminished under him is not a fair way of evaluating him.
Though I still think the crud in crud out argument applies.

The crud in crud out argument is kind of flawed as he overseen crud into manure. Every single goaltender that has joined the Flames regardless of their pedigree has put up numbers worse than their previous season or career average. I simply think this cannot be ignored as there's plenty of goaltending coaches that actually contribute to improved play of their goaltenders. I think you can attribute that to some shoddy defensive play there's not a lick of evidence to show that he's getting the most out of the goaltenders or improving their games. I realize it's his livelihood and he has a family to support, etc but the results simply haven't been there and can the team afford to go into next season assuming he's not part of the problem? It's relatively inexpensive to change goaltending coaches so I simply don't understand why they wouldn't go in a different direction if only to move on from everything that hasn't been working.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

That's a more fair way of evaluating him.
I just think the narrative that goalies diminished under him is not a fair way of evaluating him.
Though I still think the crud in crud out argument applies.

Sigalet is not the entire problem. His competency is up for debate, still, you are correct that firing him wont solve all the Flames goaltending woes. the problem is bigger than their coach. Most of the problem is that the Flames are incapable of developing NHL goalies in their system. The Flames can't keep throwing UFA's at their problem hoping that it will work out. The Flames need to adjust their goalie development team.

Sigalet is just the face at the top of a poor framework. is it all his fault? Maybe not, but is still clear that there is a problem.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

Sigalet is not the entire problem. His competency is up for debate, still, you are correct that firing him wont solve all the Flames goaltending woes. the problem is bigger than their coach. Most of the problem is that the Flames are incapable of developing NHL goalies in their system. The Flames can't keep throwing UFA's at their problem hoping that it will work out. The Flames need to adjust their goalie development team.

Sigalet is just the face at the top of a poor framework. is it all his fault? Maybe not, but is still clear that their is a problem.

Goalie development takes a while - so it really depends on what happens with Gillies and Parsons.
I think the primary problem is that the Flames have been searching for goalies in the bargain bin.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

The crud in crud out argument is kind of flawed as he overseen crud into manure. Every single goaltender that has joined the Flames regardless of their pedigree has put up numbers worse than their previous season or career average. I simply think this cannot be ignored

Not ignoring it, just don't think that argument is fully accurate.
Hiller was trending down rapidly. His career average is irrelevant
Ortio/Ramo were unproven for the most part. Certainly not enough of a body of work to suggest they got better or worse.
So who are we left with? Elliott and Johnson?

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Goalie development takes a while - so it really depends on what happens with Gillies and Parsons.
I think the primary problem is that the Flames have been searching for goalies in the bargain bin.

I agree, "Bargain bin" shopping so to speak is certainly an issue, and goalie development takes patience.
Still who was the last goalie the Flames developed who is actually an NHL player, starter or backup? Laurent Brossoit?
The Flames goalie development is terrible.

[Roof-Daddy]

If they can improve on Sigalet, I'm all for it. But as I've said before, when you look at the list of goalies Sigalet has had to work with since he's been in the Flames organization, it's nothing more than a bunch of "has been's" and "never will's".

Hard to take the results from a list of goalies like that and blame the goalie coach. Sometimes the talent is just fading, or not there.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

So who are we left with? Elliott and Johnson?

Sure. Johnson played the season before for a bad Buffalo team and put up superior numbers and the disparity with Elliott's Blues numbers is even more glaring. I'm not admonishing the poor defensive play of the Flames because IMO that's a factor but if you are the GM of this team and just came out of contract negotiations where the owners probably inquired about how you are going to go about improving the goaltending after two bad seasons do you feel comfortable that he's not part of the problem?

[Robbob]

I do think it is rather funny that Sigalet has been singled out by the internet. Such a weird thing to zero in on (goalie coach). Treliving and Gulutzan seems to be pumping his tires so unless it is the kiss of death I'll trust their judgement.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

I agree, "Bargain bin" shopping so to speak is certainly an issue, and goalie development takes patience.
Still who was the last goalie the Flames developed who is actually an NHL player, starter or backup? Laurent Brossoit?
The Flames goalie development is terrible.

I forgot about him but it seems like the only Flames drafted goaltenders that play in the NHL do so on other teams. So strange this organization's struggles when it comes to developing goaltenders. It really shouldn't be this hard seeing other teams do it all the time.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Sure. Johnson played the season before for a bad Buffalo team and put up superior numbers and the disparity with Elliott's Blues numbers is even more glaring. I'm not admonishing the poor defensive play of the Flames because IMO that's a factor but if you are the GM of this team and just came out of contract negotiations where the owners probably inquired about how you are going to go about improving the goaltending after two bad seasons do you feel comfortable that he's not part of the problem?

I don't know enough about his job and what he's expected to do to evaluate him.
But let me put it this way. If I was challenged by ownership to produce a plan to improve goaltending, changing the goalie coach would be a secondary recommendation, but not what I would hang my hat on.
I would instead make a case that after several attempts to find an effective stop gap, it is time to acquire an established #1 with a history of consistency, who is also not yet on a downward trajectory - and pay the required price (acquisition cost and contract) to do so.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I forgot about him but it seems like the only Flames drafted goaltenders that play in the NHL do so on other teams. So strange this organization's struggles when it comes to developing goaltenders. It really shouldn't be this hard seeing other teams do it all the time.

Exactly, I have no faith in the Flames goalie development team. There is almost no evidence that can produce NHL talent.

Here is a website dedicated to the Flames goal tending debacle. Fair warning its pretty depressing.

http://goaliesarchive.com/flames/index.html

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

Exactly, I have no faith in the Flames goalie development team. There is almost no evidence that can produce NHL talent.

Here is a website dedicated to the Flames goal tending debacle. Fair warning its pretty depressing.

http://goaliesarchive.com/flames/index.html

I have a good feeling Parsons may be the guy to buck the trend.

[Mister Yamoto]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I have a good feeling Parsons may be the guy to buck the trend.

Ya, Parsons Right now is exactly what Gillies was two years ago. Nice to have those sure to be franchise goalies in the system.

[Caged Great]

Just got to keep adding those high end goalie prospects. Eventually, one will turn out.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Mister Yamoto

Ya, Parsons Right now is exactly what Gillies was two years ago. Nice to have those sure to be franchise goalies in the system.

Hip surgery has put Gillies behind schedule but he still has NHL potential even if it's not as a starter.

[BurningSteel]

Hurrah!! Boston Pizza for everyone!!

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

Exactly, I have no faith in the Flames goalie development team. There is almost no evidence that can produce NHL talent.

Here is a website dedicated to the Flames goal tending debacle. Fair warning its pretty depressing.

http://goaliesarchive.com/flames/index.html

Given the changes to management, scouting and coaching over the years - this type of long-term review isn't really relevant.
The current regime can only be evaluated on the basis of what happens with the current stable of tending prospects.
The fact that Trevor Kidd, Leland Irving and others didn't pan out really is moot.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Again, I would challenge this. I'm not saying that they shouldn't go in a different direction, but not for this rationale.
Crud in crud out.
What goalies regressed? Elliott maybe but has never been able to be a full time #1. So that's established.
Hiller was on the way down since his vertigo issues
Ramo was unproven
Ortio was unproven

Isn't the job of a goaltending coach to help develop unproven goaltenders? What's the point of having one otherwise?