[Trade] Flames Acquire Michael Stone From Arizona for Draft Picks

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by devo22

yup. It's actually pretty amazing, even without going into detail like you did - it's suggested that it was Stone's fault whenever a pairing didn't work, yet it was solely his partner's accomplishment when it did work. That assessment is incredibly lopsided and biased IMO, especially for a stats guy.

I completely agree with your main point, but I would like to point out that statistics have been used to make lopsided and biased assessments for as long as they've existed. "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics".

Statistics were alternate facts before alternate facts were cool.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by mikephoen

I completely agree with your main point, but I would like to point out that statistics have been used to make lopsided and biased assessments for as long as they've existed. "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics".

Statistics were alternate facts before alternate facts were cool.

At least statistics are real. Goals, assists, PIMs, those are actual things that end up on the game sheet. I don't dispute the value of analytics but they are a made up series of parameters that only deals with probability. That's not an actual statistic.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

This is some pretty far reaching speculation. Stone controls his own destiny - he doesn't have to sign with Vegas any more than he has to sign with us. Fact is, Stone has connections to Calgary already - so if he signs here, there's no grounds for penalization unless there are hard facts.

Flames won't be changing who they protect based on a UFA d-man.

I wouldn't say reaching. Here are the facts:

1) Treliving has said he won't mortgage the future this deadline

2) Treliving gave away a 3rd for a player this deadline, but we should assume this trade was not a mortgage of the long term

3) Treliving gave away a CONDITIONAL pick stipulated on Stone RE-SIGNING

4) Bettman released a statement stating teams will be punished for trying to circumvent the expansion draft by avoiding resigning pending free agents until after the expansion draft.

So by deductive reasoning, we know the Flames intend on signing Stone (hence the condition and statements) and cannot do so after the expansion draft. Since when did deductive reasoning = reaching?

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

26 is not a peak age for defensemen.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/when-nhl-play...rics-1.2646054

"Defencemen, the co-authors report:

-Improve and decline more slowly than forwards and do so very symmetrically.
-Perform within 90 per cent of their peak from 24 to 34 years old (two years longer than forwards).
-26 is their most common age, with 25 and 27 very similar."

Huh?

[Freeway]

The advanced stats community also didn't like the Brouwer deal, and they haven't exactly been proven wrong.

[saillias]

Originally Posted by JTech780

An analytics blogger is basically running the Coyotes and that's how we were able to get Stone on the cheap.

no one in the analytics community knew who chayka was. It's Florida hiring people from NationNetwork blogs.

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by Freeway

The advanced stats community also didn't like the Brouwer deal, and they haven't exactly been proven wrong.

That's hardly more than a single anecdote which hasn't been definitively proven one way or the other.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Freeway

The advanced stats community also didn't like the Brouwer deal, and they haven't exactly been proven wrong.

They also didn't like Kris Russell and they were wrong about him in Edmonton.

Think you missed the discussion is you're trying to boil it down to just being wrong or right.

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by Freeway

The advanced stats community also didn't like the Brouwer deal, and they haven't exactly been proven wrong.

Lots of non-advanced stat community people didn't like the Brouwer deal either, that doesn't prove or disprove anything.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

David Pagnotta ‏@TheFourthPeriod
Chayka felt the return for Stone was what he was looking for. Calgary willing to pay price, deal got done.

David Pagnotta ‏@TheFourthPeriod
Chayka: "I think Calgary's a perfect situation for (Stone)."

[Freeway]

A positive of this move: the Flames have something like five non-Wideman defensemen that can play 20+ minutes.

[thymebalm]

Originally Posted by nightfx

Would've preferred the other Stone but this will do.

Can't wait for Mark Stone and Matty Gaudreau on this team...

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Freeway

The advanced stats community also didn't like the Brouwer deal, and they haven't exactly been proven wrong.

FWIW, Stone's analytics are actually passable outside of this year returning from knee surgery. This isn't a Brouwer case where there is year-after-year of suck being glorified for perceived intangibles. That article was one guy's take on the Stone stats, and one guy's alone.

Originally Posted by thymebalm

Can't wait for Mark Stone and Matty Gaudreau on this team...

I think a Gaudreau-Bennett-Stone line is my dream first line for this squad. I'd love to see it take fruition somehow.

[AC]

Originally Posted by Freeway

The advanced stats community also didn't like the Brouwer deal, and they haven't exactly been proven wrong.

Sure, but from what I've seen they also tend to go out of their way to ignore when Brouwer does contribute. It comes across as a group that often only focuses on aspects that fit their narrative coming in.

When Monahan got hot, Brouwer directly caused a lot of his goals without registering any assists.

He also gets criticized for not standing up for teammates yet since his return from injury I've seen him go after Sekera vs EDM following a hit on Gaudreau, and he went after Folin of MIN after Tkachuk got highsticked and hit late.

[Hank Hill]

If Stone doesn't work out another former Hitman Karl Alzner is a UFA in July, or maybe they both sign with the Flames.


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[Flash Walken]

Stone looked really rough from the games I have seen him play this year.

I am assuming he is better than Wideman but I am pretty apprehensive about his lack of footspeed.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

1) Treliving has said he won't mortgage the future this deadline

2) Treliving gave away a 3rd for a player this deadline, but we should assume this trade was not a mortgage of the long term

How is a 3rd round pick in one of the worst drafts in recent memory a point of concern for you?

Good god.

[bigrangy]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

That's hardly more than a single anecdote which hasn't been definitively proven one way or the other.

They also didn't like the Bouma and potential Colborne deals and I can't say they've been wrong about those.

All fancy stats is about is being able to make more correct decisions by using them than you would without using them.

The best team in this league is probably only 10% better than a bubble playoff team. If you can use stats to help you make just one more right decision it puts you one step closer to catching up to the top teams. If it worked miracles then everybody would use them and nothing else to make their decisions.

Also, on topic. I love this trade. Partly because of the effect will have on the ice (less Wideman, maybe it helps Brodie), but mainly because it tells the players that this team is at least serious about making the playoffs, and I think that if that mindset can take half amongst the team that they could become very dangerous.

[smiggy77]

Wideman will be in the roster and playing his large chunk of minutes until the trade deadline.

Whether he gets moved or not, as soon as that day passes his minutes will be cut short to likely being scratched


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[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Stone looked really rough from the games I have seen him play this year.

I am assuming he is better than Wideman but I am pretty apprehensive about his lack of footspeed.

I get that it's your schtick to be negative, but is there any particular reason you're repeating yourself?

From Page 2:

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Stone has looked slow and not particularly agile from what I have seen from him this year.