[News] Calgary Flames sat down with the league to talk about penalties drawn on the team

[cannon7]

If the Wideman Effect is real, and it very much appears to be. Come July if no team will touch Wideman, then he (or the NHLPA) may have a lawsuit. Of course it is mor elikely his play this season that is the reason no NHL team will touch him, but that doesn't mean there aren't potential damages for this apparent backlash by the league/officials.

[Kovaz]

Made this about a month ago, the first gap is the Tortorella incident (skewed the scales because there was over 100 PIMs in one game with all the fights and misconducts). The second gap, where you can see a clear jump upwards of ~4 PIM/game, is the Wideman incident.

The big thing to note here is the immediate spike upwards after the event, with Hudler, Russell, Jones, and Granlund still on the team. The "Post-Wideman, Pre-Tkachuk" rate of penalties is roughly the same as after Tkachuk, Brouwer, Gulutzan, etc. joined the team. This season starts at the game 247 mark, so just after the first really high peak.

(Also, the y-axis is mis-labeled. The title says "10 game rolling average", but the values are 10-game totals. So just divide the y-axis values by 10 mentally.)

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

Most of the Flames top guys haven't shown a big increase in their penalty minutes though.

Guys like Giordano, Brodie, Backlund etc arent way up. A couple may be but you have guys like Gaudreau and Brouwer with minutes way down.

I'm looking at Bennett, Hamilton, Hathaway and Tkachuk as the main drivers in the increase in penalties. Tkachuk's number is pretty absurd for a guy that doesn't really fight.


Look at the guys the Flames moved at the deadline last season. Hudler, Jones, Russell, and Granlund. All super low pims guys. Who did they replace them with? Did Hathaway play more down teh stretch?

Maybe this needs to be looked into deeper before jumping to conspiracy theories.

Look, it'd be really difficult to analyze each and every player and how many penalties they took each and every game from the 15-16 season to then come up with a comprehensive hypothesis. But that's not going to happen because no one has time for that.

But at the end lf the day, the reason why I even bothered looking in to the stats was because there were too many games that I was watching the Flames get the short end of the stick when it came to penalties. When I found the numbers it corroborated with what I was seeing in games. So to me, there's something that just doesn't feel right. Something that I didn't feel for most of last season or the previous seasons either.

[Tiger]

Originally Posted by Kovaz

Made this about a month ago, the first gap is the Tortorella incident (skewed the scales because there was over 100 PIMs in one game with all the fights and misconducts). The second gap, where you can see a clear jump upwards of ~4 PIM/game, is the Wideman incident.

The big thing to note here is the immediate spike upwards after the event, with Hudler, Russell, Jones, and Granlund still on the team. The "Post-Wideman, Pre-Tkachuk" rate of penalties is roughly the same as after Tkachuk, Brouwer, Gulutzan, etc. joined the team. This season starts at the game 247 mark, so just after the first really high peak.

(Also, the y-axis is mis-labeled. The title says "10 game rolling average", but the values are 10-game totals. So just divide the y-axis values by 10 mentally.)

Is it possible to see this with the penalty minutes also graphed of the flames opponents over the same period. probably much more difficult to obtain. It would be interesting if they are the inverse of this (even just from game 180 on)

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by Tiger

Is it possible to see this with the penalty minutes also graphed of the flames opponents over the same period. probably much more difficult to obtain. It would be interesting if they are the inverse of this (even just from game 180 on)

Were you thinking of penalties taken by teams when not playing against the Flames? That would be interesting to see if teams are achieving the Lady Byng-like PM numbers when they aren't playing against the Flames.

That's a lot of number gathering though, isn't it? I guess you would only need to see how disciplined the teams are before and after playing the Flames to see if there is any noticeable bias.

[Tiger]

Originally Posted by Wormius

Were you thinking of penalties taken by teams when not playing against the Flames? That would be interesting to see if teams are achieving the Lady Byng-like PM numbers when they aren't playing against the Flames.

That's a lot of number gathering though, isn't it? I guess you would only need to see how disciplined the teams are before and after playing the Flames to see if there is any noticeable bias.

i'm just saying if flames powerplays went down as equally as their penalties went up.

[Rollin22x]

After watching the Preds game, it looks like this could be a real thing. A cross check on Stajan into the boards and then the cross check to Tkachuk's head. One isn't called at all and the other is just a minor penalty? Fishy to me.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Rollin22x

After watching the Preds game, it looks like this could be a real thing. A cross check on Stajan into the boards and then the cross check to Tkachuk's head. One isn't called at all and the other is just a minor penalty? Fishy to me.

I think the refs just missed a bunch of stuff all around. CGY got away with a few penalties too, IMO.

[Rollin22x]

Originally Posted by troutman

I think the refs just missed a bunch of stuff all around. CGY got away with a few penalties too, IMO.

Could be.
Am I seeing it because I read it?
The seed is planted, there is no going back now.

[sureLoss]

Friedman expands on this:

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/3...open-business/

We get phone calls, Part I: Last week, Doug was talking about a penalty Calgary took in its win over Philadelphia and I joked about the “Wideman Conspiracy.” One referee did not find that funny. The next day, he phoned to complain and dropped a bit of a bombshell: The NHL and the Flames met to discuss the way Calgary games are officiated. They went through a ton of video, and even talked about calls not made — including some specifically against Wideman.

From what I was told, it was very tense at times. The Flames lead the league in penalties taken and penalty minutes per game. Last year, they were 26th and 19th, respectively, in those categories.

[GullFoss]

Last night was another game where the reffing was very, very suspect. There were three things to point out:

1) The stajan check into the boards, followed up by Johannsen hit.
2) Subban interference with tkachuk in first period. subban hacks tkachuk stick out of his hand. Then blatently interferes with tkachuk in an extended sequence. The refs see it, dont call it.
3) Subban slew foot on tkachuk. This was was the most obvious, because if you watch the replay, the referee sees the slew foot, and then goes out of his way to tell Subban that's a penalty. And then doesn't call the penalty.

[taco.vidal]

Id like to see breakdown of the penalty stats to see which specific officials have called penalties on the Flames.
It would be also interesting for someone to do the work to identify the officials who should have called penalties on the opposing team playing the Flames but didnt.

I think theres 70-something officials in the NHL.
http://www.nhlofficials.com/member_listing.asp
I have no idea how crews are assigned to games and if theres any east/west or even conference breakdown for their scheduling. I wonder if theres a pattern for some specific officials to be less favorable to the Flames.

It doesnt have to be a conspiracy all of the on ice officials. A fraction of officials could be enough to result in what we see the penalties for/against being at now.

[djsFlames]

I'll rescind my suspicions of the officiating when I see some of these 4/5 minute penalties going the other way. Not just 2 minutes (or turning their cheeks) for borderline dirty plays like some we saw yesterday.

Given that the Flames' severity of penalization lately has been suspect to say the least. They get involved in a scrum, 2 extra minutes, slam a door and it's 4, tap a guy with a stick and they're ejected. There have been some instances where opposing teams did arguably much worse and got off scott free.

Don't like it..

My dad is the most anti-conspiracy guy out there and sitting with him during the Vancouver game, he was calling this stuff out. Never heard him complain like that. Very uncharacteristic. Maybe eventually this stuff ceases to be make believe fan venting?

[Heavy Jack]

It's been bad for sure - When Brouwer got face raped by That giant in Vancouver and got the only penalty I was baffled. Two unsportsmanlike calls in that game and both were absurd. The spear call on Chiasson was a joke.. just so many to list this year. What's worrying me aren't the calls we are getting though it's the once that aren't getting called - I know the exact hits on Wideman that the Flames would be showing, at least a half dozen hit from behinds/boardings on the guy haven't been called and sometimes to the detriment of the score. That Stajan hit from behind was scary.. seems to be an increasingly noticeable thing when I watch games and I hate using the refs as an excuse but when a spade is a spade.

Who knows, I actually feel bad for Wideman in all of this - it was a noncall dirty hit he received that started this ####show in the first place.

[monkeyman]

The NHL and the refs can deny it and they can call the Flames and complain about how they don't like being accused of non-impartiality, but Flames aren't the source of this, in fact they've been very good about not speaking to it. This has come about organically from fans and even impartial commentators. If there were nothing to it, it wouldn't have gotten to where it is. There's obviously merit to it. The refs are not calling the games impartially.

[mikeecho]

I've always been frustrated with how the referees manage the game. Aside from the Flames lately, the unwritten rule has always been that both teams should get the same amount of penalties so the game is even. Manipulating this approach is pretty much how the Flyers managed to become Stanley Cup champions in the 70's.

I've always wished that there was a metric such as a penalty percentage that could show how even the calls were. I get that a lot of it is subjective, but it be pretty interesting to see a stat that said:
- Team A - 4 penalties on 13 infractions = 30.7%
- Team B - 4 penalties on 7 infractions = 57.1%

Based on current referee mentality, this would have been an evenly called game, but the percentage shows that it wasn't even close.

[lazypucker]

Referees are like cops - you want them to catch criminals, but you hate their guts when they issue you a ticket....

[csnarpy]

Originally Posted by lazypucker

Referees are like cops - you want them to catch criminals, but you hate their guts when they issue you a ticket....

Sounds about right until you piss off that cop, he then becomes a dirty cop and repeatedly gives you and all your friends tickets and there's nothing you can do because the entire department is in on it....

[Mr.Coffee]

Not necessarily trying to be a 'devil's advocate' here, but, maybe just trying to throw it out there so people can maybe think about it from the other side.

I work with a lady who is friends with the ref who was hit by Wideman, and who was injured. As far as I understand it, he actually resides in Calgary and while normally they aren't assigned to "home" games, for some reason he was in this instance.

He has legitimately very serious injuries. I don't believe he'll ever ref again, so that career is over. As rumour has it, he'll also have lasting and long-term health issues related to the incident.

Now, whether or not you believe the above as I am also getting it from second hand and it's obviously rumoury- but let's pretend it's completely all accurate- one could understand why the NHL and in particular, the refs, might have some anger towards Wideman and the Flames. Or maybe not anger, but resentment. Or maybe not even resentment, but they just want to send a message to all NHL teams that, if you #### with our guys, you're not going to like the outcome.

I mean if you step back and whether or not you believe that Wideman did it on purpose or not or whatever, at the end of the day he seriously injured a man and possibly ended his career. Maybe the refs don't feel like his suspension was enough. I'm not even justifying that it makes it right to not call the game right, or to not be impartial, but these people are all humans after all.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Not necessarily trying to be a 'devil's advocate' here, but, maybe just trying to throw it out there so people can maybe think about it from the other side.

I work with a lady who is friends with the ref who was hit by Wideman, and who was injured. As far as I understand it, he actually resides in Calgary and while normally they aren't assigned to "home" games, for some reason he was in this instance.

He has legitimately very serious injuries. I don't believe he'll ever ref again, so that career is over. As rumour has it, he'll also have lasting and long-term health issues related to the incident.

Now, whether or not you believe the above as I am also getting it from second hand and it's obviously rumoury- but let's pretend it's completely all accurate- one could understand why the NHL and in particular, the refs, might have some anger towards Wideman and the Flames. Or maybe not anger, but resentment. Or maybe not even resentment, but they just want to send a message to all NHL teams that, if you #### with our guys, you're not going to like the outcome.

I mean if you step back and whether or not you believe that Wideman did it on purpose or not or whatever, at the end of the day he seriously injured a man and possibly ended his career. Maybe the refs don't feel like his suspension was enough. I'm not even justifying that it makes it right to not call the game right, or to not be impartial, but these people are all humans after all.

He was a linesman. He was retiring in any event.

You are right that they are human and can be affected by events. This tends to support the existence of an officiating bias. IMO it's not a conspiracy in that there's planning by a secret cabal. Or anything to do with Bettman. But the Flames simply do not get the benefit of favourable calls. And the fact that they are having meetings tells me it's real. There's no way they'd stick their necks out and have the meeting if they didn't feel strongly about it. Going public tells me they are at the end of their rope.