Total Cost Lebanon Evacuation - 31mil.

[Agamemnon]

If the only country you're a citizen of is Canada then the government should never take your citizenship away under pretty much any circumstance. To be stateless is to be completely screwed, regardless of how often you visit the country of your citizenship.

If you have dual-citizenship, then fair enough, but a lot of people are solely Canadians and live in other places for extremely long periods of time. You can't take away someone's citizenship just because they don't come back to the country every 10 years or some other non-related rule. Being a citizen of Canada shouldn't mean you have to come here every x years... citizenship is a right, not a privelige (as far as I'm concerned).

Under current law there is no provision for involuntary loss of Canadian citizenship except:

• naturalized Canadians can be deprived of citizenship if convicted of fraud in relation to their citizenship application, or their original admission to Canada as an immigrant
• second-generation Canadians by descent may lose Canadian citizenship automatically on their 28th birthday if they do not meet the requirements for retention

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Looger

why doesn't israel not invade and occupy for 18 years? The alternative was to keep being the ducks in a shooting gallery

why did lebanon allow the PLO on their ground?
Got me.

why did israel seize the west bank and gaza?
Spoils of a war they did not start

why did the palestinians refuse to recognize israel's existence in 1948?
Got me again.

why did israel refuse to recognize palestine's existence in 1948?
Israel accepted the partition plan of '47.

why did the grand mufti of jerusalem (friend of hitler's) call for israel's destruction? Could be he has a thing about Jews?

why did the british empire promise the same land to two peoples?
Bad crumpets?

why did palestinian terror organizations start killing jewish pilgrims in the early 20th century? They talked with the mufti?

why did jewish terror organizations start killing palestinians in the early 20th century? They also talked with the mufti?

why were jewish settlers ethnically cleansing the arab palestinians?
The only ethnically cleansed are in the Middle east is the Gaza Strip - NO Jews allowed.

why did the damascus and riyadh landowners sell the land that palestinian arabs were living on?

Good money?

why did the first zionist conference of 1897 call for palestine to be colonized and the arabs to be scattered?
Source?

how far back do you want to go?
Arafat said he could trace his liniage back to the jesubites, thogh only he knew how.

if the palestinians were able to defend their homes a century ago this would all have settled out. With the Jews being asked "How long can you tread water?" (classic Bill Cosby)

they were sold out and the zionists kept pushing, kept pushing, kept pushing and no one cared. Of course they never pushed back.

there has to be peace sometime, and as long as one party has supreme military license to massacre at will, there will not be. Once the kidnappings stop and kassams stop flying.

hezbollah would not exist, PERIOD, were it not for israeli and syrian predation. Yet it does, so let's deal with the here and now.

too late now, i know that.

but this war was clearly a provocation, many israeli sources even now report that the 'hostages' taken were in lebanese terrirtory. Which sources, please?

this conflict did not harm hezbollah's support from within lebanon. Likely made them more popular.

if israeli planes were unable to at will destroy infrastructure and kill citizens maliciously, like when they'd warn citizens to scatter and then target their vehicles including ambulances, then at this stage there could be some form of detente.

BR

[Looger]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

BR

sources?

i'm an anti-semite.

do your own ****ing research.

[Vulcan]

One solution is for Canada to stop allowing dual citizenship. I think it would be a step backwards but when people start to misuse their privileges, you've got to do something.

http://www.ndp.ca/page/4467

[White Doors]

Why did the UN create Israel?
What people historically, were from this land?
Why do a lot of Muslims want them dead?
Why do the 20% of Israel's populaiton that is Arab not kill Jews too?
Why do the Palestinians not bargain in good faith for a peace accord?
Why don't the Palestinans go to their own country, Jordan?
Why is Mein Kempf consistently one of the top selling books in Aramaric?
Why do suicide bombers target women and children?
Why do the leaders of the countries surrounding Israel routinely call for it's destruction?
Why is Israel held to a higher standard internationally when dealing with murderers than any other country in the world?
Why was Israel purposefully single out at the Durban racism conference?
Why was Israel singled out for defending itself from a terrorist group that is armed and trained by Syria/Iran?
Why were the palestinians cheering and passing out candy when they heard about 9/11?
Why does PLO TV and schools compare Jews to Monkey's and Apes and the UN funds this?
Why when Israel pulled out of Gaza, missles were immediately fired into Israel from Gaza?
Why can't Israel be left in peace?
What would you do if you were the leader of Israel?

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

If the only country you're a citizen of is Canada then the government should never take your citizenship away under pretty much any circumstance. To be stateless is to be completely screwed, regardless of how often you visit the country of your citizenship.

If you have dual-citizenship, then fair enough, but a lot of people are solely Canadians and live in other places for extremely long periods of time. You can't take away someone's citizenship just because they don't come back to the country every 10 years or some other non-related rule. Being a citizen of Canada shouldn't mean you have to come here every x years... citizenship is a right, not a privelige (as far as I'm concerned).

Under current law there is no provision for involuntary loss of Canadian citizenship except:

• naturalized Canadians can be deprived of citizenship if convicted of fraud in relation to their citizenship application, or their original admission to Canada as an immigrant
• second-generation Canadians by descent may lose Canadian citizenship automatically on their 28th birthday if they do not meet the requirements for retention

Yet, those two exceptions show that citizenship is only a right for those who were born here. It is a privilage for those not born here - If you lied to get citizenship, you lose it, if you do not meet the requirements on your 28th birthday, you lose it. (wonder what those requiremnets are.)

Non-residents (born here or not) should have to file a Canadian tax return at least once in a while. We pay for the benefits of citizenship, why shouldn't they.

Someone is born here then the family moves away when they are five years old, lives their whole life in another country, then at 65 decides to move back to Canada for the health care and pittance social security cheque - I think that person's citizenship should be up for debate.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by ken0042

I see your point Agamemnon; but there should be some sort of "price" to be a Canadian.

Why not use a headtax? It worked before.

[Red Mile Style]

Why did the UN destroy Palestine?
What people historically, were from this land?
Why do a lot of Jews want them dead?
Why do the 45% of Palestine's populaiton that is Jewish kill
Palestinians?
Why do the Israelis not bargain in good faith for a peace accord?
Why don't the Palestinans go to their own country, Palestine?
Why would anyone believe Mein Kempf is consistently one of the top selling books in Aramaric?
Why do suicide bombers target women and children?
Why does the leaders of the countries surrounding Palestine routinely call for it's destruction?
Why is Palestine held to a higher standard internationally when dealing with murderers than any other country in the world?
Why is the democratically elected Palestinian government purposely singled out at every peace negotiation?
Why is Palestine singled out for defending itself from a terrorist group that is armed and trained in Palestine?
Why weren't the palestinians cheering and passing out candy when they heard about 9/11?
Why do the Israeli TV and schools compare Arabs to Monkey's and Apes and the UN funds this?
Why can't Palestine be left in peace?
What would you do if you were the leader of Palestine?

[Moderator]

Keep in mind that the origina topic of the thread wasn't about the source of the conflicts in the Middle East and who/what is/isn't justified. Please keep it on topic and try not to hijack other people's threads. Thanks.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Ok... but what if they can't get citizenship in the place they're residing? You can't revoke someones citizenship leaving them stateless, that would be brutal. They couldn't obtain a passport from any country, couldn't travel... if that country wants to deport them for whatever reason they'd have nowhere to go (jail?). The nice thing about citizenship is it is your right to have it. If the government could choose to take it from you... that would be bad.

There needs to be a residency requirment to retain ones citizenship for those who have naturalized to Canada. There are very very few people who were not born in Canada but live else where but have only Canadian citizenship. That arguement is just not a starter.

I can understand that citizenship cannot be taken away if you were born in Canada....but if you moved here, became a CC and then took off back home for 20 years only to be able to have your children Canadians and to retire in Canada with full paid health care....well....thats a pile of donkey ****.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Looger

sources?

do your own ****ing research.

Well, in my reaserch, a couple of my sources are the World Zionist Organization's documentation of the First Zionist Congrees - http://www.doingzionism.org.il/

And the Jerusalem Post.

Both say you are way off base on both of those particular counts.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

There needs to be a residency requirment to retain ones citizenship for those who have naturalized to Canada. There are very very few people who were not born in Canada but live else where but have only Canadian citizenship. That arguement is just not a starter.

I'm talking about people who were born as Canadian citizens. If you revoke their citizenship because they don't come back every 10 years, or some other reason, thats wrong and impossible. The argument is valid.

I can understand that citizenship cannot be taken away if you were born in Canada....but if you moved here, became a CC and then took off back home for 20 years only to be able to have your children Canadians and to retire in Canada with full paid health care....well....thats a pile of donkey ****.

I guess... I'm not really all that concerned, if they become Canadian citizens, thats what they are. The law is that it cannot be taken away except for specific circumstances that I've posted in this thread. Once you've 'earned' it, its yours for life, no exceptions (except those posted above). I don't see the real issue... you're better off residing here than pretty much anywhere else in the world, if they choose to go back to their first country of origin and live there while maintaining their citizenship I don't see the big hangup. Are we constantly bailing these people out of disaster after disaster at incredible cost to Canada? Not really...

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

There needs to be a residency requirment to retain ones citizenship for those who have naturalized to Canada. There are very very few people who were not born in Canada but live else where but have only Canadian citizenship. That arguement is just not a starter.

I can understand that citizenship cannot be taken away if you were born in Canada....but if you moved here, became a CC and then took off back home for 20 years only to be able to have your children Canadians and to retire in Canada with full paid health care....well....thats a pile of donkey ****.

Like Agamemnnon noted, a residency requirement may be a hardship on some people. Members of my national association have had to resign because they could not meet the residency requirement.

Filling a Canadian tax return every few years could aliviate a lot of bad feelings. Would there be as much resentment towards those evacuees concerned if it was widely known that they paid Canadian taxes while out of country?

On a side note, the issue of letting non-citizens vote in the municiple elections has gotten some play here in TO. They pay taxes (sales and property taxes at least) yet do not get a benefit that citizens who live overseas or in the south enjoy at no cost.

OR, how about the recent Italian elections where Canadian Italians could run for the Italian Parliment? I wonder how Italians in Italy feel about that?

[Looger]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Well, in my reaserch, a couple of my sources are the World Zionist Organization's documentation of the First Zionist Congrees - http://www.doingzionism.org.il/

And the Jerusalem Post.

Both say you are way off base on both of those particular counts.

i was way off base on that comment, usually i kind of enjoy the chance to try and find legitimate backup to my views online.

sorry aboot that.

i'll get back to this later, i kind of have to run for a bit.

on a side note for those interested the jerusalem post does have some interesting stuff and it definitely takes israel's leadership to task. ha'aretz isn't bad either.

if we had journalism like israel does...

[jolinar of malkshor]

Ok....most of the Canadian Lebanesse that live in Lebanon, were born in Lebanon. There are not that many people born in Canada that are living in Lebanon. Beside...as I said...if you were born in Canada, I agree you cannot have your citizenship revoked.

Good lord man...thats what we are talking about. We are talking about changing the law...how hard is that to understand. We are not debating the current law. Look at the first sentence of my post. "There needs to be a residency requirment to retain ones citizenship for those who have naturalized to Canada." Do I say anywhere there IS.

geeesh

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Looger

i was way off base on that comment, usually i kind of enjoy the chance to try and find legitimate backup to my views online.

sorry aboot that.

I know, and I try to read your sources, why I was kind of surprised by your post.

i'll get back to this later, i kind of have to run for a bit.

on a side note for those interested the jerusalem post does have some interesting stuff and it definitely takes israel's leadership to task. ha'aretz isn't bad either.

if we had journalism like israel does...

we would probably have a better alternative to the Conservitives, Liberals and NDP.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Good lord man...thats what we are talking about. We are talking about changing the law...how hard is that to understand. We are not debating the current law. Look at the first sentence of my post. "There needs to be a residency requirment to retain ones citizenship for those who have naturalized to Canada." Do I say anywhere there IS.

geeesh

Ok... well, since I'm 99.9% sure the Canadian government won't do what you're suggesting, I guess you're out of touch with the CPC agenda. I think the current law is a whole lot more valid then your suggested law, thats why I brought it up. I don't really see the point in making it more difficult for people to maintain their citizenship, regardless of whether they're single/dual citizens... and obviously the government agrees. I also don't think that this one example of 'abuse' (though I don't really agree that it is abuse) means that we should be jumping to change our laws all of a sudden, that seems a bit reactionary.

Start a petition and get working on changing it if you feel strongly.

Are you still having problems getting quotes to post right?

[Ayrahb]

I would expect that the naturalized Canadians who obey the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, the Income Tax Act and the Criminal Code of Canada would get the treatment equal to that of Canadians born in Canada, whatever that might be.

But let's go back to reality:

These people will never be consider Canadians by a certain segment of the population. One may draw parallels between them and the "snowbirds" or the entertainment industry people 'til the cows come home - I doubt it would change such opinions.

Is it racism/prejudice? Probably for some. For others it might be just about the bottom line or about the opinion that these people were guilty of terrorism by association. Or speaking of naturalized citizens generally, the fact that the huddled masses will never be able to pay their debt to Canada completely.

If you don't like the current situation write to the Immigration Minister Monte Solberg:

Parliament Hill Office
Room 107, Confederation Building
House of Commons
Ottawa ON K1A 0A6 (postage free)
Phone: 613 992-4516 Fax: 613 992-6181
solbem@parl.gc.ca
Office of the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration Canada
365 Laurier Ave. W. 21st floor
Jean Edmonds Tower South
Ottawa, ON, K1A 1L1

Or maybe organize rallies, public education campaigns, start a new political party. I heard and saw enough complaining on message boards, QR77 and the Calgary Sun letters. Your people are in Ottawa - maybe you can do something about it now.

To those who want citizenship to have a price... Canadian citizenship does have a price: $200 plus the passport fee. Coming to Canada as an immigrant has a price: $975 up until May this year, 50% reduction since. Refugees had to pay the $975 fee until 2000. Immigration application fee and other: see http://www.cic.gc.ca/EnGlish/applications/fees.html

And yes, you have to pass a test too. I would actually like the Canadian citizenship fees and tests to be instituted for everyone, even if you were born here.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Ok... well, since I'm 99.9% sure the Canadian government won't do what you're suggesting, I guess you're out of touch with the CPC agenda. I think the current law is a whole lot more valid then your suggested law, thats why I brought it up. I don't really see the point in making it more difficult for people to maintain their citizenship, regardless of whether they're single/dual citizens... and obviously the government agrees. I also don't think that this one example of 'abuse' (though I don't really agree that it is abuse) means that we should be jumping to change our laws all of a sudden, that seems a bit reactionary.

Start a petition and get working on changing it if you feel strongly.

Are you still having problems getting quotes to post right?

Look...I am not trying to be a dick but I do not like being taken advantage of. And when I pay 1/3 o fmy income to taxes and some jerk off who wants to play the system pays nothing and then wants a free ride when times get tough....well I get mad....and you won't like me when I get mad.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Look...I am not trying to be a dick but I do not like being taken advantage of. And when I pay 1/3 o fmy income to taxes and some jerk off who wants to play the system pays nothing and then wants a free ride when times get tough....well I get mad....and you won't like me when I get mad.

Fair enough... I guess I just don't agree that dual-citizens living in one of their countries residences are automatically 'some jerk' leeching off the Canadian people. They are Canadian... there aren't 2 types of Canadians, you either are, or you aren't, regardless of whether or not you hold other citizenships, were born here, were naturalized, etc. How you obtain it might be different, but once you have it, you're Canadian.