Total Cost Lebanon Evacuation - 31mil.

[mykalberta]

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/...vacuation.html

I must say, that $2066 per person is quite frugal given situation and seasonal timing.

I expected this to be near the 50-65 mark - I wonder if this includes the support cost(s) etc.

Now the question for precedence will be, will a bill be sent out and if so for how much.

This sets a dangerous precedence for future conflicts, Africa civil war etc.

I think they should be forced to cough up at least half the bill considering it saved them the purchase of the trip back.

I think the US's policy is people sign an IOU and will pay back a certain amount - I believe its the whole bill and they have x years to pay it off.

MYK

[Burninator]

What I don't understand about this whole situtation is where all these 15,000 people on vacation in Lebanon or what? I remeber hearing that some people haven't lived in Canada for 10-15 years. So if you become a citizen and move back to your home country and it 'hits the fan' then you can call on Canada for help? Just curious.

[Ironhorse]

And from what I understand, the vast majority are back in Lebanon now...

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/...vacuation.html

I must say, that $2066 per person is quite frugal given situation and seasonal timing.

I expected this to be near the 50-65 mark - I wonder if this includes the support cost(s) etc.

The article says they think the total cost could top $100 million.

Now the question for precedence will be, will a bill be sent out and if so for how much.

I doubt it - it's not the "Canadian Way"

This sets a dangerous precedence for future conflicts, Africa civil war etc.

I think they should be forced to cough up at least half the bill considering it saved them the purchase of the trip back.MYK

I do not think that the precedence issue is one of cost - To use tax dollars to get Canadians out of harms way is ok by me.

The question becomes who are we paying to bring to Canada. The side issue at the time was that a large number of these evacuees had been living and working in Lebanon for 10+ years. They had duel citizenship - they fled the Lebanese civil war, came to Canada, were solid citizens, then when the dust settled, moved back to Lebanon. A significant portion of evacuees were not in Lebanon on vacation visiting family, they were living and working there for years.

Is citizenship something you have for life regardless of where you live and work, or should you be required to spend a significant amount of time (1 year out of every 3) or money (file taxes with CRA every other year) to keep it?

[redforever]

Originally Posted by Burninator

What I don't understand about this whole situtation is where all these 15,000 people on vacation in Lebanon or what? I remeber hearing that some people haven't lived in Canada for 10-15 years. So if you become a citizen and move back to your home country and it 'hits the fan' then you can call on Canada for help? Just curious.

No they were not. And over a third have already moved back to Lebanon. They are what you call "convenient Canadians"

The USA pays to get them out of Lebanon, to get back to the USA is at the expense of the individual.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by fotze

I'd be all for limiting that but it would need to include the snowbirds who live in Florida and Arizona most of the year. That can be considered just as 'shady'. And coming back for a token week per year doesn;t do it for me.

Another question, do people outside of the country get their health care paid for?

Don't they have to come back for three consecutive months in order not to lose their health care?

Also, I think most snowbirds file Canadian Income taxes, no?
(They would have to pay US property taxes)

[Burninator]

What got me thinking about this was when these Lebanese-Canadians that haven't lived in Canada for over 10 years were complaning how slow the Canadian government was acting in getting them out. Which I didn't think was fair of them.

It does seem like some, not all, are just abusing Canada's generosity. I know it's not fair because they were born in an area that has conflict fairly often. But how often is Canada excepted to help "convenient Canadians" who keep moving back? When it is us "current Canadians" that are paying for it.

[Agamemnon]

If you have citizenship in Canada you're a Canadian. I imagine the outcry would be 10x worse had Canada abandoned all Canadian citizens in Lebanon, or worse, divided them into 'real Canadians' and 'convenient Canadians' and then just removed the 'real' ones. They didn't really have a choice, citizenship is citizenship, there aren't 2-3 different kinds.

[ken0042]

I see your point Agamemnon; but there should be some sort of "price" to be a Canadian. Maybe have a rule that you can only renew your passport overseas once; and then to continue it you have to do so in person in Canada. That way if somebody has left Canada for over 10 years then they are obviously no longer a citizen.

To a lesser extent I see this for myself; I've lived in Alberta for so long I no longer consider myself a "Manitoban." If Manitoba started to hand out prosperity cheques like we did last year (it could happen; they have an NDP gov't) then I wouldn't feel entitled because I have not contributed anything to the province in the last decade.

I also think some of the outrage comes from news stories showing people mad that they got rescued and all they got for free food on the ship was sandwiches. (and other acts of thanklessness.)

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by ken0042

I see your point Agamemnon; but there should be some sort of "price" to be a Canadian. Maybe have a rule that you can only renew your passport overseas once; and then to continue it you have to do so in person in Canada. That way if somebody has left Canada for over 10 years then they are obviously no longer a citizen.

Ok... but what if they can't get citizenship in the place they're residing? You can't revoke someones citizenship leaving them stateless, that would be brutal. They couldn't obtain a passport from any country, couldn't travel... if that country wants to deport them for whatever reason they'd have nowhere to go (jail?). The nice thing about citizenship is it is your right to have it. If the government could choose to take it from you... that would be bad.

To a lesser extent I see this for myself; I've lived in Alberta for so long I no longer consider myself a "Manitoban." If Manitoba started to hand out prosperity cheques like we did last year (it could happen; they have an NDP gov't) then I wouldn't feel entitled because I have not contributed anything to the province in the last decade.

Fair enough... but you can always move back to Manitoba, move to another province, and don't need a passport to do it. If you were living in Japan for 3 years and Canada decided to revoke your citizenship, you'd be screwed if you weren't also a Japanese citizen. It doesn't seem fair to make you eat the cost of air travel to come back to Canada every year just to maintain your citizenship, that can be quite the expensive burden (not to mention if you're working it could be damaging to your career to take a ton of time off each year).

I also think some of the outrage comes from news stories showing people mad that they got rescued and all they got for free food on the ship was sandwiches. (and other acts of thanklessness.)

Well... I'm sure there were some people who were appreciative at being evacuated, no? Its not like they're all ungrateful jerks who hate Canada and just use and abuse the system, that might be jumping to too extreme a conclusion. Complaining about sandwiches for food sounds pretty Canadian to me

[Looger]

why don't we just buy lebanon some decent air defence?

[Looger]

Originally Posted by fotze

Because then Zaire will want some Air Defence too.

ha. true.

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Ok... but what if they can't get citizenship in the place they're residing? You can't revoke someones citizenship leaving them stateless, that would be brutal. They couldn't obtain a passport from any country, couldn't travel... if that country wants to deport them for whatever reason they'd have nowhere to go (jail?). The nice thing about citizenship is it is your right to have it. If the government could choose to take it from you... that would be bad.

Well they would have Lebanese citizenship, right? The people we are talking about are the ones who fled to Canada during the last war, then moved back to Lebanon. Then during the most recent conflict demanded to be rescued by Canada. I have no problem with helping people. What irritated me was the complaining on how slow the rescue was and other minor things. You can't really excpect a timely 5-star rescue.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

If you were living in Japan for 3 years and Canada decided to revoke your citizenship, you'd be screwed if you weren't also a Japanese citizen. It doesn't seem fair to make you eat the cost of air travel to come back to Canada every year just to maintain your citizenship, that can be quite the expensive burden (not to mention if you're working it could be damaging to your career to take a ton of time off each year).

Yes, however I was suggesting 10 years. Seeing as we are adults for about 60 years; all I am asking is for somebody to have to come back to Canada 6 times in their adult lifetime. I guess in my mind if somebody cannot go home once every 10 years; then perhaps they should re-think what they consider "home" to be.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Looger

why don't we just buy lebanon some decent air defence?

Why doesn't Lebanon just crack down armed radical militias?

[Red Mile Style]

I wonder how much money was spent evacuating people from Israel...

oh, wait...

[Red Mile Style]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Why doesn't Lebanon just crack down armed radical militias?

Why doesn't Israel just take a chill pill?

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Ok... but what if they can't get citizenship in the place they're residing? You can't revoke someones citizenship leaving them stateless, that would be brutal. They couldn't obtain a passport from any country, couldn't travel... if that country wants to deport them for whatever reason they'd have nowhere to go (jail?). The nice thing about citizenship is it is your right to have it. If the government could choose to take it from you... that would be bad.

You only have the right to be a citizen of the counrty in which you were born. To be a citizen of another country, you would have to earn it. Otherwise I would have the right to be an American Citizen today and get all the perks that go along with it, if I so chose.

Also, I do believe that the government has the right to revoke citizenship if it was aquired under false pretenses - Like Nazis escaping prosecution and lying to immigration.

Fair enough... but you can always move back to Manitoba, move to another province, and don't need a passport to do it. If you were living in Japan for 3 years and Canada decided to revoke your citizenship, you'd be screwed if you weren't also a Japanese citizen. It doesn't seem fair to make you eat the cost of air travel to come back to Canada every year just to maintain your citizenship, that can be quite the expensive burden (not to mention if you're working it could be damaging to your career to take a ton of time off each year).

This could be solved by having this expat file a Canadian tax form each year, or every three years. Sure it would cost that person extra, but I would think that Canadian citizenship is worth it.

Well... I'm sure there were some people who were appreciative at being evacuated, no? Its not like they're all ungrateful jerks who hate Canada and just use and abuse the system, that might be jumping to too extreme a conclusion. Complaining about sandwiches for food sounds pretty Canadian to me

One evacuee really gave it to the complainers noting that the government came and got them out and that they should be greatful to be alive and well and in Canada. (granted, she got to ride on Harper's jet, so I am sure she got a pillow and some peanuts at cost.)

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by ken0042

Yes, however I was suggesting 10 years. Seeing as we are adults for about 60 years; all I am asking is for somebody to have to come back to Canada 6 times in their adult lifetime. I guess in my mind if somebody cannot go home once every 10 years; then perhaps they should re-think what they consider "home" to be.

I have to agree.
During the conflict is not the time to pick and choose who's a "real" Canadiian and who's a "convenient" Canadian. We did the right thing by pulling them all out.
However,
I think a system that is more abuse proof could be implemented during times like now when there is no panic. There should be some sort of system for keeping your Canadian citicenship and not just keeping the benefits.
It wouldn't be something that pulls the rug out from under these people and all of the sudden leaves them without citizenship, but something that has clear and easy to follow guidelines that any citizen could obide by without too much inconvenience.

[Looger]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Why doesn't Lebanon crak down armed radical militias?

why doesn't israel not invade and occupy for 18 years?

why did lebanon allow the PLO on their ground?

why did israel seize the west bank and gaza?

why did the palestinians refuse to recognize israel's existence in 1948?

why did israel refuse to recognize palestine's existence in 1948?

why did the grand mufti of jerusalem (friend of hitler's) call for israel's destruction?

why did the british empire promise the same land to two peoples?

why did palestinian terror organizations start killing jewish pilgrims in the early 20th century?

why did jewish terror organizations start killing palestinians in the early 20th century?

why were jewish settlers ethnically cleansing the arab palestinians?

why did the damascus and riyadh landowners sell the land that palestinian arabs were living on?

why did the first zionist conference of 1897 call for palestine to be colonized and the arabs to be scattered?

how far back do you want to go?

if the palestinians were able to defend their homes a century ago this would all have settled out.

they were sold out and the zionists kept pushing, kept pushing, kept pushing and no one cared.

there has to be peace sometime, and as long as one party has supreme military license to massacre at will, there will not be.

hezbollah would not exist, PERIOD, were it not for israeli and syrian predation.

too late now, i know that.

but this war was clearly a provocation, many israeli sources even now report that the 'hostages' taken were in lebanese terrirtory.

this conflict did not harm hezbollah's support from within lebanon.

if israeli planes were unable to at will destroy infrastructure and kill citizens maliciously, like when they'd warn citizens to scatter and then target their vehicles including ambulances, then at this stage there could be some form of detente.