Helmets when tobogganing

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by pseudoreality

Correct me if I am wrong, but thought helmets primarily just protect the head from scalp lacerations and do little to help with concussions. Most injuries I know from sledding are broken bones and dislocations.

Not trying to attack your position, but there are multiple places you can get an injury. A helmet aims to help to prevent irreversible life changing injuries to the head.

Even if we don't go to the full extreme for head trauma, if someone has a gash or scar on their head/face that is preventable by a helmet, do you think they would prefer to have had a helmet if they could get a mulligan on the situation?

Personally, the look of kids wearing helmets on small hills is still odd to me, but I completely understand why the kids are wearing helmets.

[N-E-B]

Maybe I'm wrong, but if you wipe out hard enough to cause a concussion I don't think a helmet will help much in that regard. Also, what kind of hills are you taking your 5 year olds to where they could wipe out like that?

I'm not necessarily anti-helmet in this case, I just think there's too many factors to consider to give a definitive yes or no.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by FireGilbert

I'm reading a book right now called "Foolproof (why safety can be dangerous and how danger makes us safe)" by the Greg Ip, a Canadian economics commentator for the WSJ.

He says that making things safer can have a negative effect of humans taking more risks. Examples are ABS brakes causing drivers to go faster, financial bailouts causing investors to take more risks eventually leading to the sub prime mortgage bubble, and helmets in football and hockey causing more aggressive play and concussions.

So yes a helmet tobogganing is probably a good idea but keep in mind your kid may then feel indestructible and make riskier decisions.

I remember a company I worked for made it mandatory that all utility knives had to be automatically retractable. The idea was that it would cut down on cutting injuries if the blade automatically retracts.

It ended up having the opposite effect. People became so complacent that the knives would retract that they stopped checking to do it as you would if you manually had to close them. In rare occasions, small stones or malfunctioning springs would stop the blade from retracting completely and people would jam them into their pockets and cut their legs. In the end, there were more cutting injuries after that experiment.

It was a classic case of equipment that was theoretically there to make things safer, but caused a negative behavioral effect that had the opposite effect.

[chemgear]

Alright, I guess I had to do some digging around . . .


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And finally, who even needs a helmet!

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[Wormius]

Originally Posted by N-E-B

Maybe I'm wrong, but if you wipe out hard enough to cause a concussion I don't think a helmet will help much in that regard. Also, what kind of hills are you taking your 5 year olds to where they could wipe out like that?

I'm not necessarily anti-helmet in this case, I just think there's too many factors to consider to give a definitive yes or no.

I don't think it is just kids just wiping out on a hill, it's kids colliding with other kids on the hill and having heads knocked together or knocked into whatever.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by GGG

The problem with wearing a helmet while driving is the added mass to the neck may do more harm than good. You would need the Hans devices installed in Race cars to see a dramatic improvement which compared to the cost of a simple helmet for other activities would need very close look in terms of dollars spent per increased probability of safety.

Cycling helmets substantially increase the size of the head, turning a lot of what would otherwise be misses or glancing scalp tears into brain trauma.

[Reaper]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The number one source of head injuries in Canada is automobile collisions, including pedestrians being struck by vehicles. You just keep driving and walking without wearing a helmet.

So, we only are to make attempts at being safer if it is with regards to the leader in head injuries? So, we should stop wearing helmets when playing hockey then? After all, it isn't the biggest bringer of brain injuries so unless we tackle that activity alone then we're being overly cautious. Stop being ridiculous.

I'm not talking about wearing a bear suit when going down a 20 degree slope people. I'm talking about wearing helmets for the kind of stuff we did as kids like going down the hill skeleton style or piling onto a huge inner tube with 5 other kids and going for a slide.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Cycling helmets substantially increase the size of the head, turning a lot of what would otherwise be misses or glancing scalp tears into brain trauma.

I'm curious here,

What kind of accident would this occur in. The head in the helmet is still narrower than the bicycle rider.

[Reaper]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Cycling helmets substantially increase the size of the head, turning a lot of what would otherwise be misses or glancing scalp tears into brain trauma.

Source?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Reaper

So, we only are to make attempts at being safer if it is with regards to the leader in head injuries? So, we should stop wearing helmets when playing hockey then? After all, it isn't the biggest bringer of brain injuries so unless we tackle that activity alone then we're being overly cautious. Stop being ridiculous.

We make trade-offs between safety, fun, and convenience every day. If all we cared about was maximising safety, we would walk and drive around in helmets all the time.

The thing is, people don't examine those trade-offs on any sort of statistical basis. They make them on the basis of social norms, and how common an activity is. Tobogganing isn't that common, so it's easy enough to say 'people should always wear helmets tobogganing.' Same with cycling. But walking? Driving a car? Most people do that all the time. They don't want to wear a helmet driving to work or walking across a mall parking lot. So they ignore any risk in those activities.

Originally Posted by Reaper

I'm not talking about wearing a bear suit when going down a 20 degree slope people. I'm talking about wearing helmets for the kind of stuff we did as kids like going down the hill skeleton style or piling onto a huge inner tube with 5 other kids and going for a slide.

So we're agreed that wearing helmets tobogganing should be discretionary and a matter of judgement.

[Reaper]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

We make trade-offs between safety, fun, and convenience every day. If all we cared about was maximising safety, we would walk and drive around in helmets all the time.



The thing is, people don't examine those trade-offs on any sort of statistical basis. They make them on the basis of social norms, and how common an activity is. Tobogganing isn't that common, so it's easy enough to say 'people should always wear helmets tobogganing.' Same with cycling. But walking? Driving a car? Most people do that all the time. They don't want to wear a helmet driving to work or walking across a mall parking lot. So they ignore any risk in those activities.



So we're agreed that wearing helmets tobogganing should be discretionary and a matter of judgement.

I never said that it shouldn't be discretionary. I also never said that the maximization of safety is the only concern. I just think it is stupid to blanket dismiss anyone's safety choices as pussification. Nobody knows anyone else's family or medical history. It is almost as stupid as pointing to individual preferences on the matter as being the decider and then deriding those who choose differently than you do. If you get your choice then everyone else gets theirs, too.

[fundmark19]

I was at a busy hill today in the se and I would say 10 percent of kids were wearing helmets. My 3 year old was not since she was sliding with me and nobody in our group of 7 kids were. They did bring ski helmets but kids said they wouldn't wear them sledding when given the option. Also ambulance did come as an adult hurt themselves on the hill. I didn't see the crash or see if they were wearing a helmet though. I did see some big crashes! I forgot how fast you go sledding

[pseudoreality]

Originally Posted by DoubleF

Not trying to attack your position, but there are multiple places you can get an injury. A helmet aims to help to prevent irreversible life changing injuries to the head.

Even if we don't go to the full extreme for head trauma, if someone has a gash or scar on their head/face that is preventable by a helmet, do you think they would prefer to have had a helmet if they could get a mulligan on the situation?

Personally, the look of kids wearing helmets on small hills is still odd to me, but I completely understand why the kids are wearing helmets.

I don't actually have a position. I was really just asking about helmet design and function. I could have sworn I heard a radio broadcast on brain injuries and Doctor they were interviewing was saying that helmets protect the skull, but not always the brain. However, bike helmets can displace some energy when the foam breaks in two. The question was not intended to be pro or anti helmet.

My little sister got a minor concussion while sliding when she was pretty small. It was a very minor roll off the side of a sled. I don't think a helmet would have changed anything.

Sledding can be very dangerous. My daughter just turned 3 and I have another one on the way. I never thought about helmets while sliding before, but I guess now is the time to look at it. So far she has only done very small hills where Daddy has always been in a position to grab her.

On a related note, my little girl had a vaccination/public health appointment a couple weeks ago when she turned 3 and the nurse was shaming me for letting her ride her tricycle in the garage without a helmet.

[RougeUnderoos]

This is obviously a contentious issue and I certainly don't know the answer, but I think we can all agree that if you see a clip of your facebook friend sledding with his kid and having a good time, you are an a$$hole if you comment with some goddamn moralizing about safety.

The tyke maybe or maybe not should be wearing a helmet (that's not for me to judge) but please, keep your trap shut. But if you just can't keep your trap shut, send a private message. That way, you aren't questioning your friend's parenting in public, and you won't come across like you are trying to be Mr.Parentoftheyear, or Mrs.Responsibility, which is exactly what you come across as to everyone else who reads it.

[DownhillGoat]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I remember a company I worked for made it mandatory that all utility knives had to be automatically retractable.

That was actually Alberta OH&S that drove that.

[FireGilbert]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I remember a company I worked for made it mandatory that all utility knives had to be automatically retractable. The idea was that it would cut down on cutting injuries if the blade automatically retracts.

It ended up having the opposite effect. People became so complacent that the knives would retract that they stopped checking to do it as you would if you manually had to close them. In rare occasions, small stones or malfunctioning springs would stop the blade from retracting completed and people would jam them into their pockets and cut their legs. In the end, there were more cutting injuries after that experiment.

It was a classic case of equipment that was theoretically there to make things safer, but caused a negative behavioral effect that had the opposite effect.

Too funny, my work made the exact same decision about three weeks ago. I asked why since I always thought the retractable ones were safer but received the same explanation you just provided.

[metallicat]

Originally Posted by rvd123

Pussification of society.

Wear a helmet, don't wear a helmet, I really don't care. But shaming people by calling them pussies for trying to be safe, or if nothing else just doing what they want, is a terrible attitude.

[mdubz]

MOD EDIT: No.

[Reaper]

Originally Posted by mdubz

Don't forget your tampon too..

Ooooooooh. Don't cut yourself with all that edge. You're the best, Bellows.

[Schraderbrau]

I make sure my kids wear their hockey helmets when they go to the big hill by our house. Maybe only 25% of the kids wear helmets but I won't take a chance. As a parent it's your obligation to keep your kids safe. Some say our society is soft but I'd rather have a safe kid then a brain damaged one.