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Old 12-19-2016, 11:21 AM   #5501
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Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame View Post
Isn't the average commercial debt somewhere in the high 20k for the average Albertan? Among the highest in the country?

Probably more often than you think.

Do you mean consumer debt? And how is 20k of average debt representative of spending on non-exempt purchases only?

The average income of an Albertan is 50K/year. At 50K, that means you're spending 20% of your total income on non-exempt goods. That's an extreme amount, considering the list of exemptions in BC.
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Old 12-19-2016, 11:23 AM   #5502
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You mean the outrage when they were voted out?
Haha, yes I guess eventually that did them in. But the floor crossings had a higher impact from what I remember.
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Old 12-19-2016, 11:29 AM   #5503
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Where was the outrage when just last year Jim Prentice dropped new taxes on booze, smokes, incomes and 4 cents per litre on gasoline (equivalent to the carbon tax)? Plus the alberta healthcare premiums. All in one swoop?

The PC crowd seems really selective at who they bark at.

I hate all these taxes as much as anyone, but lets not pretend that the PCs would have left our wallets alone.
Actually, there was a lot of anger about that too. Especially from the many who felt a large part of our budget problems was more about overspending. What do you think led to his "look in the mirror" comment? People were complaining loudly about his proposals to raise taxes in several areas. He was also - much like Notley - accused of deceptive tax increases.

You're just being really selective about what you want to hear.
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Old 12-19-2016, 11:30 AM   #5504
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Originally Posted by PepsiFree View Post
Do you mean consumer debt? And how is 20k of average debt representative of spending on non-exempt purchases only?

The average income of an Albertan is 50K/year. At 50K, that means you're spending 20% of your total income on non-exempt goods. That's an extreme amount, considering the list of exemptions in BC.
Sorry, I meant consumer debt.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...ifax-1.3484940
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Old 12-19-2016, 11:33 AM   #5505
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In the theoretical existence of a PST on everything you've deemed to be taxable.

How many people do you think blow almost $1000 a month outside of rent, groceries, gas, insurance and other things that are commonly exempt? Not even considering those who also pay for childcare.

Honestly, what percentage of Albertans? Who are these people and how can I be friends with them?
Gas and most groceries are not exempt from gst, why do you feel they would not be taxed under a PST? $850/month is not an extremely high amount when you include those two items.

These would be everyday Albertans, how can you be friends with them? You'd have to clarify why they won't be friends with you now for me to give you any advice on that.
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Old 12-19-2016, 11:40 AM   #5506
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Actually, there was a lot of anger about that too. Especially from the many who felt a large part of our budget problems was more about overspending. What do you think led to his "look in the mirror" comment? People were complaining loudly about his proposals to raise taxes in several areas. He was also - much like Notley - accused of deceptive tax increases.

You're just being really selective about what you want to hear.
Nope, PCs had some critics, but not to the same level as the NDP. Not even close. And really, add it all up and those tax increases were much higher that what we face now.

Guys moving to Mexico to save on carbon tax? Makes for a great headline to slander Notley with, but that's about it.
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Old 12-19-2016, 11:44 AM   #5507
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Because the assets can fluctuate wildly and are largely based on the massive real estate bubble in the country fueled by the arguably too-low interest rates.

How does asset accumulation happen without a corresponding increase in relative wage value? Debt.

Source data - Source: Statistics Canada, BMO Capital Markets Economics


Source data - Statistics Canada, BMO Capital Markets Economics

Since we've had 25 years in this situation (falling interest as a % of income, asset value rising faster than debt), it's irrational to expect that this is a bubble that is due to pop.
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Old 12-19-2016, 11:48 AM   #5508
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Originally Posted by iggy_oi View Post
Gas and most groceries are not exempt from gst, why do you feel they would not be taxed under a PST? $850/month is not an extremely high amount when you include those two items.



These would be everyday Albertans, how can you be friends with them? You'd have to clarify why they won't be friends with you now for me to give you any advice on that.

Because in BC they're exempt.
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Old 12-19-2016, 11:49 AM   #5509
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Source data - Source: Statistics Canada, BMO Capital Markets Economics


Source data - Statistics Canada, BMO Capital Markets Economics

Since we've had 25 years in this situation (falling interest as a % of income, asset value rising faster than debt), it's irrational to expect that this is a bubble that is due to pop.
I don't think it is due to pop either, because it is almost too big to fail at this point.

Catastrophe is probably too mild a term for what would happen to the Canadian economy with a 5℅ interest rate spike.

Canadians are slaves to their debt levels and if they stop buying things because their credit has dried up we are all in serious trouble.
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Old 12-19-2016, 11:52 AM   #5510
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Because in BC they're exempt.
That automatically means the would be here?
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Old 12-19-2016, 11:52 AM   #5511
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They are available to all equally, if you qualify for them. Your taxes cover your healthcare costs, do you get upset that only cancer patients get chemotherapy treatment? Only people with "babies" get parental leave?
No they are not.

If you get cancer or any other health issue you EVERY Canadian gets access to health care. It is an insurance program that is available to EVERY Canadian.

If you have a baby, EVERY Canadian gets parental leave. It is a social assistance program available to EVERY Canadian.

With the CTax rebate, 40% of Albertans do not receive it.

Your example is not correct.
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Old 12-19-2016, 11:54 AM   #5512
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Yeah, I remember clearly there was plenty of outrage to Prentice over those taxes. People here called it tax by a thousand cuts. a ton of little increases here and there that add up. No one liked it. Everyone wanted to vote out the PCs except maybe Resolute 14.
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Old 12-19-2016, 11:54 AM   #5513
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I don't think it is due to pop either, because it is almost too big to fail at this point.

Catastrophe is probably too mild a term for what would happen to the Canadian economy with a 5℅ interest rate spike.

Canadians are slaves to their debt levels and if they stop buying things because their credit has dried up we are all in serious trouble.
We are? I thought we were an importing nation, most of the goods consumers buy are imports. Yes services would be affected as well but I suspect not as much.
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Old 12-19-2016, 12:01 PM   #5514
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In fact as crazy as it sounds, I wonder if you could make a human rights case over not being eligible for social programs due to having an income that is higher than the government's threshold.

You could never deny someone the right to access a program based on gender, race, sexual orientation, etc....why then should someone not get access to a social program based on income? That is outright discrimination.
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Old 12-19-2016, 12:07 PM   #5515
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At least the carbon tax is so divissive (and by divissive I mean not at all because everyone hates it)
Or not.

http://abacusdata.ca/clean-energy-ca...-growth-plan/?

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Survey also shows most Canadians support a transition from fossil fuel reliance as quickly as possible, including half in Alberta
I realize that's not specific to a carbon tax but rather climate change action as a whole. But people by and large are not opposed to the aims of carbon pricing.

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Old 12-19-2016, 12:11 PM   #5516
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Where was the outrage when just last year Jim Prentice dropped new taxes on booze, smokes, incomes and 4 cents per litre on gasoline (equivalent to the carbon tax)? Plus the alberta healthcare premiums. All in one swoop?.
I'm not one of those outraged, but other than the health care premium those are all pretty direct user fees. If I want to avoid the impact of a tax on booze I can just drink less booze. The thing most people are objecting to about the carbon tax is the indirect cascading effect on the cost of everything, making the impact unavoidable and far broader. You could make a similar argument about a gas tax but that's at least only one input, instead of ten.
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Old 12-19-2016, 12:12 PM   #5517
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In fact as crazy as it sounds, I wonder if you could make a human rights case over not being eligible for social programs due to having an income that is higher than the government's threshold.
Hahahaha. Absolutely not. But I encourage you to try it anyway for the comedy value.
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Old 12-19-2016, 12:15 PM   #5518
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That automatically means the would be here?

Well, considering we're talking about a hypothetical, doesn't it make sense to consider other precedents?

It seems like your 10K/year scenario is predicated on the idea that everything taxable will be taxed, and there is evidence to suggest that could very likely not be the case.

BC isn't the only province where food and gas are exempt from PST. Saskatchewan and Manitoba say hi. Quebec and Ontario don't charge on most food, and quite honestly I didn't bother checking the others. Basic groceries are zero-rated anyways, so you can't tax them period.

You don't think the long list of exemptions in every single province with a PST or HST impacts your position at all? I don't see a scenario where Alberta would buck the trend and tax like crazy. You're $850 per month on non-exempt goods is far more than the average Albertan would spend.

But yeah, in your scenario where Alberta taxes more goods than every other province in Canada, yes, the PST would be worse than the Carbon Tax. Show me a precedent for why you think that would happen.
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Old 12-19-2016, 12:21 PM   #5519
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Alberta is getting to be a very expensive province to live in. 3rd most expensive housing market and the highest household expenses.
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Old 12-19-2016, 12:21 PM   #5520
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Originally Posted by PepsiFree View Post
Well, considering we're talking about a hypothetical, doesn't it make sense to consider other precedents?

It seems like your 10K/year scenario is predicated on the idea that everything taxable will be taxed, and there is evidence to suggest that could very likely not be the case.

BC isn't the only province where food and gas are exempt from PST. Saskatchewan and Manitoba say hi. Quebec and Ontario don't charge on most food, and quite honestly I didn't bother checking the others. Basic groceries are zero-rated anyways, so you can't tax them period.

You don't think the long list of exemptions in every single province with a PST or HST impacts your position at all? I don't see a scenario where Alberta would buck the trend and tax like crazy. You're $850 per month on non-exempt goods is far more than the average Albertan would spend.

But yeah, in your scenario where Alberta taxes more goods than every other province in Canada, yes, the PST would be worse than the Carbon Tax. Show me a precedent for why you think that would happen.
BC also charges 6.67c carbon tax on fuel and doesn't charge PST in order to maintain the revenue neutrality of their carbon tax system. It is exempt in Sask and Man but no in every other Province. I don't think his $850 number is right, but I do think that a 5% PST in Alberta would cost a lot more than the carbon tax will.
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