CalgaryNEXT Discussion pt. 2

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by ken0042

What I was getting at is that with CalgaryNext, we go from about 6000 parking stalls to 2500. At least with something on Stampede grounds we still keep those 6000 stalls. So I'm not looking for more parking, I'm looking to not lose any existing parking.

I think you will lose some of the existing parking, because I anticipate that the new arena would go on existing parking space. Unless the Dome is replaced by some new parking facility, which I suppose is possible.

[Bunk]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

It may not be as bad as the auto salvage but it looks as bad as the EV did. The EV had some parking lots and cheap buildings. The WV area has car dealerships and storage lots that are a mess, the planetarium is abandoned (or looks that way), and the bus depot is a big old block of bricks. Mewata and the millenium park are interesting, I guess. And the contamination makes any development a non-starter unless a government agency steps in.

I get the "no tax dollars" argument, but I also get the development counterargument.

West Village mostly looks like a generic suburban highway commercial area - car dealerships and an office building.

East Village was a truly blighted wasteland. Like East Cleveland, or something. Not comparable in my opinion.





I do believe it is absolutely important to eventually redevelop West Village, but it certainly has far less urgency than East Village did and there is only so much capital and (similar) market demand to go around.

[Kavvy]

Originally Posted by Bunk

I do believe it is absolutely important to eventually redevelop West Village, but it certainly has far less urgency than East Village did and there is only so much capital and (similar) market demand to go around.

This is the odd part, people hardly comment on this point when you post it.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I think land bought that can't be used is a hit on the tax payer. When you hear about chemicals in people's basements after the floods it's an issue. And real estate within walking distance of a major city's downtown core shouldn't be an odd old bus station, some car lots, and an empty field.

It just doesn't say modern city to me.

The East Village was embarrassing now it's becoming very cool. I'm not saying the city should take the deal as it stands, but I hope something happens in the West with or without an arena project to do the same.

I think Calgary deserves it.

http://www.calgary.ca/UEP/ESM/Pages/...ment-plan.aspx

No one is arguing West Village shouldn't be developed. No one has ever said that on this forum.

They disagree with using the valuable land on a new arena.

Two different things.

[Table 5]

The thing to keep in mind is that the City of Calgary does have a plan for West Village, and had one before CalgaryNEXT came around. It doesn't need a stadium to happen. And considering what CMLC did for East Village, I trust their work much more than what the Flames scrapped together.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I think land bought that can't be used is a hit on the tax payer. When you hear about chemicals in people's basements after the floods it's an issue. And real estate within walking distance of a major city's downtown core shouldn't be an odd old bus station, some car lots, and an empty field.

It just doesn't say modern city to me.

The West Village has cycling and running paths along a pleasantly forested river bank, the Pumphouse theatre, and some of the nicest residential areas in the city nearby. My son has been going to a theatre camp at the Pumphouse, so I've been spending every Saturday morning for the last couple months hanging out in the area drinking coffee, strolling, and reading. If a couple car dealerships are really the worst thing about a neighbourhood, it's hardly a blight.

I can't think of a major city I've been to that doesn't have a worse neighbourhood - often much worse - within a 10 minute walk of the downtown core.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Bunk

West Village mostly looks like a generic suburban highway commercial area - car dealerships and an office building.

East Village was a truly blighted wasteland. Like East Cleveland, or something. Not comparable in my opinion.

NSFW!

I do believe it is absolutely important to eventually redevelop West Village, but it certainly has far less urgency than East Village did and there is only so much capital and (similar) market demand to go around.

The EV was in worse shape, but no longer. Those pics are old, right? Now there is a trendy walkway, a great restaurant/bar area by the river, etc. So what more needs to happen in EV that requires the limited capital?

whereas:







Not sure what office building you are referring to. The bus depot?

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The EV was in worse shape, but no longer. Those pics are old, right? Now there is a trendy walkway, a great restaurant/bar area by the river, etc. So what more needs to happen in EV that requires the limited capital?

whereas:



Not sure what office building you are referring to. The bus depot?

Maybe the City should look into fixing that area...

oh wait. http://www.calgary.ca/UEP/ESM/Pages/...ment-plan.aspx

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Cappy

http://www.calgary.ca/UEP/ESM/Pages/...ment-plan.aspx

No one is arguing West Village shouldn't be developed. No one has ever said that on this forum.

They disagree with using the valuable land on a new arena.

Two different things.

Well I was called dramatic, short sighted and chasing aesthetics for suggesting something should be done without even supporting the arena project.

I like the idea, I think a counter from the city and a look at it would be smart. But I'm certainly fine with the city deciding it's a no go and moving on. Have always hated the politics getting in the way of actually looking at something, seems sad to me.

[La Flames Fan]

Originally Posted by Bunk

West Village mostly looks like a generic suburban highway commercial area - car dealerships and an office building.

East Village was a truly blighted wasteland. Like East Cleveland, or something. Not comparable in my opinion.





I do believe it is absolutely important to eventually redevelop West Village, but it certainly has far less urgency than East Village did and there is only so much capital and (similar) market demand to go around.

Wow...amazing to see East Village like that...that's where I live

The area is becoming a go-to destination, such a beautiful turn around and great work by CMLC.

[GioforPM]

Cappy, that's a pre-Nenshi plan which has never moved an inch since. No funding, no planning, nothing. Then in 2013 they created a new mission for CMLC to go back to the drawing board and come up with a plan for development. I wouldn't hold my breath.

http://www.calgarysun.com/2015/02/28...o-west-village

ETA: Nenshi's focus, for better or worse, continues to be redoing things around the City hall area - he's looking at some sort of procession route that goes from EV through City Hall to Olympic plaza.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Cappy, that's a pre-Nenshi plan which has never moved an inch since. No funding, no planning, nothing. Then in 2013 they created a new mission for CMLC to go back to the drawing board and come up with a plan for development. I wouldn't hold my breath.

http://www.calgarysun.com/2015/02/28...o-west-village

ETA: Nenshi's focus, for better or worse, continues to be redoing things around the City hall area - he's looking at some sort of procession route that goes from EV through City Hall to Olympic plaza.

It doesn't matter. The argument is this place needs fixed. It's not like the city isn't looking into the development of the area.

There are many reasons the CMLC and city have brought up for waiting a bit on this area. All perfectly valid.

To say this area is a blight and the city deserves to have it fixed misses the fact that no one is debating that point. The debate is over what should go there.

Your changing the point of the debate by trying to argue its the Arena or its nothing, when that clearly isn't the case.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Cappy

It doesn't matter. The argument is this place needs fixed. It's not like the city isn't looking into the development of the area.

There are many reasons the CMLC and city have brought up for waiting a bit on this area. All perfectly valid.

To say this area is a blight and the city deserves to have it fixed misses the fact that no one is debating that point. The debate is over what should go there.

Your changing the point of the debate by trying to argue its the Arena or its nothing, when that clearly isn't the case.

Nope, never said that. Simply said that I agree with Bingo that it's an eyesore.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Nope, never said that. Simply said that I agree with Bingo that it's an eyesore.

Even in the photos you posted West Village isn't nearly as bad as the East was.

[The Fonz]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I'm still waiting on the other shoe to drop from the Phaneuf trade!

Actually laughed out loud at this one.

And lets not forget the Kotalik trade that we were all sure was just a precursor to another move, cause on it's own, that Kotalik trade made absolutely no sense for this team.

Sometimes when what we see appears to be inept management, it is just that. It is not a clever or genius move in disguise. It is just bad management, right out in the open.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Even in the photos you posted West Village isn't nearly as bad as the East was.

Agreed. The EV looked worse, and needed to be developed first. Not any more though. At some point the WV needs to be addressed. The creosote problem isn't going away, and the land is underused as it is. It highly resembles what was in the area around Edmonton's new arena - bus depot, low rent buildings and open lots.

I figure the arena going there is dead, though I think it would have been a very good usage, financing arguments aside.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Agreed. The EV looked worse, and needed to be developed first. Not any more though. At some point the WV needs to be addressed. The creosote problem isn't going away, and the land is underused as it is. It highly resembles what was in the area around Edmonton's new arena - bus depot, low rent buildings and open lots.

I figure the arena going there is dead, though I think it would have been a very good usage, financing arguments aside.

The problem with Calgary next was too much land was being used for the stadium leaving not enough money in the CRL to pay for things like the clean up and infrastructure requirements in the area.

Just building an arena in the WV would be interesting but I'd still worry about development canibalization.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by GGG

The problem with Calgary next was too much land was being used for the stadium leaving not enough money in the CRL to pay for things like the clean up and infrastructure requirements in the area.

Just building an arena in the WV would be interesting but I'd still worry about development canibalization.

Do you mean less residential availability? Maybe. The old 2010 plan called for a huge boulevard that would have been at least equal to an arena/entertainment area.

The attraction for me on the calgaryNEXT notion (flawed design concepts, financing aside) was getting the stadium/fieldhouse/arena. Once that's off the table, yeah, WV can be developed however the City wants. I think taxpayers will eat all of the cleanup costs and a large part of the development infrastructure costs.

[Bunk]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The EV was in worse shape, but no longer. Those pics are old, right? Now there is a trendy walkway, a great restaurant/bar area by the river, etc. So what more needs to happen in EV that requires the limited capital?


Not sure what office building you are referring to. The bus depot?

That's not my point - the comparison EV pre-redevelopment to WV pre-redevelopment, including the term "blight".

Yes, of course, now WV is behind the very nicely improved EV. But the City has a lot of capital in the ground in EV now, and it would seem premature to move onto the next one when the first still has a long, long time until build out and a lot of debt still to be paid back.

[Bunk]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Do you mean less residential availability? Maybe. The old 2010 plan called for a huge boulevard that would have been at least equal to an arena/entertainment area.

The attraction for me on the calgaryNEXT notion (flawed design concepts, financing aside) was getting the stadium/fieldhouse/arena. Once that's off the table, yeah, WV can be developed however the City wants. I think taxpayers will eat all of the cleanup costs and a large part of the development infrastructure costs.

The boulevard was in place of Bow Trail, not in addition to. The land taken up would be virtually the same - just in street form rather than current highway form.

The arena/stadium takes up a lot of (otherwise) taxable land.