Flames Future: Glass Half Full or Half Empty?

[RoughRiderRowdy]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

You willing to wait for our key players to become better players, or do you feel they've all peaked at this point?

Not going to lie, my patience with this team is running super thin. I think sam is a 2nd line player on a contender as is monahan. We have no elite offensive talent outside of johnny

[wingmaker]

Originally Posted by polak

lol

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by AcGold

How many teams are in our situation or have ever been in our situation?

Best player is targeted with intent to injure 20 times in a game, a major violation of the rules, with zero repercussion. I can't think of this ever happening where there are so many violations it puts our best player at risk of playing less than half the season.

I completely agree Kanzig and Smith aren't ready to be effective pros capable of contributing to the game on a nightly basis, but they are capable of annihilating a few players with huge hits.

So you put Kanzig out and he smashes Staal into the corner. We get scored on in the PK but Johnny doesn't get slashed anymore that game, Kanzig sits for the rest of the game and Johnnys line pots 2 goals because one of the top 5 talents in the league gets to play. A net gain. Kanzig, Engelland and Smith are the only ones that can get into the scrums and create fear.

Until we have that element Johnny will continually get injured. We have to take the approach as there is no other way, Smith stands up a few players in the neutral zone with bone rattling hits (even if they are a little late) and nobody wants anything to do with Johnny or Smith.

Kanzig goes off, they score on the PP, then they do it again as it's so effective to create powerplays

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by AcGold

How many teams are in our situation or have ever been in our situation?

Best player is targeted with intent to injure 20 times in a game, a major violation of the rules, with zero repercussion. I can't think of this ever happening where there are so many violations it puts our best player at risk of playing less than half the season.

I completely agree Kanzig and Smith aren't ready to be effective pros capable of contributing to the game on a nightly basis, but they are capable of annihilating a few players with huge hits.

So you put Kanzig out and he smashes Staal into the corner. We get scored on in the PK but Johnny doesn't get slashed anymore that game, Kanzig sits for the rest of the game and Johnnys line pots 2 goals because one of the top 5 talents in the league gets to play. A net gain. Kanzig, Engelland and Smith are the only ones that can get into the scrums and create fear.

Until we have that element Johnny will continually get injured. We have to take the approach as there is no other way, Smith stands up a few players in the neutral zone with bone rattling hits (even if they are a little late) and nobody wants anything to do with Johnny or Smith.

Kanzig has to be able to catch Staal to smash him.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Kanzig has to be able to catch Staal to smash him.

Was gonna say this. How many shifts does Kanzig get against one of their better players in the hopes he can catch Staal for a hit?

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by AcGold

How many teams are in our situation or have ever been in our situation?

Best player is targeted with intent to injure 20 times in a game, a major violation of the rules, with zero repercussion. I can't think of this ever happening where there are so many violations it puts our best player at risk of playing less than half the season.

I completely agree Kanzig and Smith aren't ready to be effective pros capable of contributing to the game on a nightly basis, but they are capable of annihilating a few players with huge hits.

So you put Kanzig out and he smashes Staal into the corner. We get scored on in the PK but Johnny doesn't get slashed anymore that game, Kanzig sits for the rest of the game and Johnnys line pots 2 goals because one of the top 5 talents in the league gets to play. A net gain. Kanzig, Engelland and Smith are the only ones that can get into the scrums and create fear.

Until we have that element Johnny will continually get injured. We have to take the approach as there is no other way, Smith stands up a few players in the neutral zone with bone rattling hits (even if they are a little late) and nobody wants anything to do with Johnny or Smith.

There is zero chance Kanzig will be in the situation to hit Staal because he's literally the slowest player I've ever watched. Staal would move out of the way with ease. Only way is a dirty hit that Staal isn't expecting.

You still haven't been able to give any examples of a goon making a big hit that made that player change his game to not slash a star. It just doesn't happen anymore. Doesn't matter who the Pens put on the ice Crosby will always take big hits and get slashed. Players that play on the edge don't care about retribution they actually would love to get the team a PP when the other team retaliates.

And 90% of those slashes that were part of the "21" were harmless slashes that Hathaway alone last game did about 10 times. Like Gaudreau said it is part of the game we just have to hope the refs call the more serious ones.

Kanzig might be big but he's not a dirty player and the fights I've watched of him aren't that impressive so I don't even think he'd make a good goon.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by polak

Am I coming here calling out users for being a-ok and saying that everything is fine out of nowhere? I'm just defending myself cause it's fun to have these debates about hockey. Please find me a post where I went after someone for thinking everything is fine where I was unprovoked.

Let me explain to you how CP works when the Flames aren't playing well.

1. People get frustrated and start making threads questioning the players and management.

2. Some people say everything is fine and some people say that everything is not fine and express concern.

3. The people who say that everything is fine then go and attack the fans that express concern saying that their opinions are "ridiculous" or "they have no patience" and their compatriots pat them on the back and also get in on going after the fans that are expressing concern.

4. This then drives away fans that might also be unhappy with the direction of the team as they don't want to be attacked and worse yet, it causes some new users and people who aren't aware that CP is far more reserved than most other internet forums to lose their mind when they're attacked, which makes the fans that are unhappy look even worse which exasperates the cycle.

5. The echo chamber continues to chug along.

Meanwhile, the Flames have been perennial losers for most of the last 20 years, but yes the fans that aren't as patient or express concern are such a problem.

I thought your "kool-aid" comment pretty condescending, indicative of how you feel your pessimistic approach is superior. I even put it in bold when I quoted you.

I'm not going to look through posts for you, though. Not particularly interested in whether you think you are a victim here, or whether you actually started things. I just commented on that particular post.

[AcGold]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Was gonna say this. How many shifts does Kanzig get against one of their better players in the hopes he can catch Staal for a hit?

Not that hard if he's willing to take a penalty, which Bollig and Engelland should be taking care of but they don't.

There needs to be a message sent because it's clear nobody else is going to do anything. Orr used to elbow people in the face behind the play and he was lauded as one of the greatest ever, it doesn't take rocket science. Just hit a few people to send a message; we'll do whatever it takes to protect Johhny.

Until that message is sent this team is going nowhere, at his best he creates scoring opportunities every shift. We need that back, desperately. I just don't see any alternatives. Kanzig/Smith smash a few players on some questionable hits or Johnny keeps heading to the IR.

[JiriHrdina]

You are basically advocating the type of player hunting that is a black mark of the game - and is no different than what Bertuzzi did to Steve Moore.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by AcGold

How many teams are in our situation or have ever been in our situation?

Best player is targeted with intent to injure 20 times in a game, a major violation of the rules, with zero repercussion. I can't think of this ever happening where there are so many violations it puts our best player at risk of playing less than half the season.

I completely agree Kanzig and Smith aren't ready to be effective pros capable of contributing to the game on a nightly basis, but they are capable of annihilating a few players with huge hits.

So you put Kanzig out and he smashes Staal into the corner. We get scored on in the PK but Johnny doesn't get slashed anymore that game, Kanzig sits for the rest of the game and Johnnys line pots 2 goals because one of the top 5 talents in the league gets to play. A net gain. Kanzig, Engelland and Smith are the only ones that can get into the scrums and create fear.

Until we have that element Johnny will continually get injured. We have to take the approach as there is no other way, Smith stands up a few players in the neutral zone with bone rattling hits (even if they are a little late) and nobody wants anything to do with Johnny or Smith.

What was the Flames' game plan the first game of the season? Hit McDiver as often as possible. Finish every check on him. Get in his face. They got Lucic just for that effect, and did that deter the Flames at all? Lucic did nothing except allow Engelland to make him a bit uglier.

The team has to respond. The response is not by forcing a goon onto the team.

To put your logic to the test, who is probably the toughest guy in the NHL right now? Engelland. Is he not capable of annihilating Suter or Staal? Of course he is. The team is more concerned with being disciplined. You don't NEED to bring up Kanzig and Smith. You have loads of guys that can answer the bell and stick up for Gaudreau right now, and the entire team needs to do it. Getting a 'goon' onto the team would just naturally cause the other team to do it more often, as they know whomever the goon is on the team will just try to take retribution, and the refs will DEFINITELY know why the goon is being sent out onto the ice. The second he even tries something, the refs are all over it.

For it to work, you would essentially need the goon to 'jump' a player so the refs wouldn't be able to stop him. Sure, you get your slice of retribution, but the goon not only gets tossed from that game (allowing for the other team to come back with even harder slashes), but the goon will be gone for probably 20 games or more. The NHL does not put up with that. Reputation counts. It isn't a good enough short term strategy, and it is a horrible long-term strategy.

The refs need to start calling it.
The team needs to fix their PK and PP and use it to HELP create a deterrent.
The entire team needs to response when the above doesn't work.

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Kanzig has to be able to catch Staal to smash him.

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Was gonna say this. How many shifts does Kanzig get against one of their better players in the hopes he can catch Staal for a hit?

Anyone can catch someone, even if just along the boards. Regehr wasn't known for his blazing speed, but he routinely caught guys like Hemsky and even St. Louis along those boards. Also, Kanzig is huge, but he can actually skate. He can really move when he needs to. Surprisingly so. He is no Griffin Reinhart. His mobility is so underrated. Definitely needs to improve his agility, but that kid has some speed.

(not that I support using him as a goon, at all).

[calgaryblood]

^ And not to mention Kanzig has more things to worry about, like being called up to the AHL, from where he is playing now, the ECHL.

Like Pepsifree said earlier it's really not fair either to turn a player into a goon before he even has a chance to show his game. He's trying to work on his speed and game and shouldn't have to worry about who is going to get retribution for Gaudreau.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by AcGold

Not that hard if he's willing to take a penalty, which Bollig and Engelland should be taking care of but they don't.

There needs to be a message sent because it's clear nobody else is going to do anything. Orr used to elbow people in the face behind the play and he was lauded as one of the greatest ever, it doesn't take rocket science. Just hit a few people to send a message; we'll do whatever it takes to protect Johhny.

Until that message is sent this team is going nowhere, at his best he creates scoring opportunities every shift. We need that back, desperately. I just don't see any alternatives. Kanzig/Smith smash a few players on some questionable hits or Johnny keeps heading to the IR.

Really? Have you seen Kanzig skate? Odds are he hurts his shoulder on a few misses before he ever hits a guy like Staal who can skate really well.

[AcGold]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

^ And not to mention Kanzig has more things to worry about, like being called up to the AHL, from where he is playing now, the ECHL.

Like Pepsifree said earlier it's really not fair either to turn a player into a goon before he even has a chance to show his game. He's trying to work on his speed and game and shouldn't have to worry about who is going to get retribution for Gaudreau.

I never said retribution, some of you have really questionable reading comprehension.

It's not ideal but what other choice do we have? Should we have this conversation again when Johnny gets hurt again? If he plays 30 games this season then what?

And why are we putting Kanzigs development ahead of Johhny being injured? It's by far the most glaring issue that will hamper this team the entire season, I guess we just let other teams break the rules and injure our players long term.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by AcGold

I never said retribution, some of you have really questionable reading comprehension.

It's not ideal but what other choice do we have? Should we have this conversation again when Johnny gets hurt again? If he plays 30 games this season then what?

He's been hurt once in his career so far. Once.
Relax.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Anyone can catch someone, even if just along the boards. Regehr wasn't known for his blazing speed, but he routinely caught guys like Hemsky and even St. Louis along those boards. .

This just isn't true.
You are referring to one of the premiere shutdown defensemen of his era and saying that anyone could do what he did.

Speed is an over-used term. For dmen, it is less about speed and more about agility, footwork, and angling.

So when we talk about Kanzig being able to catch someone, it is about all those factors - the same factors that basically determine if he can play in the NHL or not.

Otherwise skilled forwards will simply dance around him and make him look foolish.

Laying a big hit is way harder than it looks. Basically the only way you could ensure Kanzig could do it is by targeting the player when he doesn't have the puck. Which would be complete goonery.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by AcGold

I never said retribution, some of you have really questionable reading comprehension.

You said you wanted someone big to smash a player because they hurt Gaudreau.

ret·ri·bu·tion (rĕt′rə-byo͞o′shən)
n.
1. Punishment administered in return for a wrong committed.

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by AcGold

I never said retribution, some of you have really questionable reading comprehension.

It's not ideal but what other choice do we have? Should we have this conversation again when Johnny gets hurt again? If he plays 30 games this season then what?

And why are we putting Kanzigs development ahead of Johhny being injured? It's by far the most glaring issue that will hamper this team the entire season, I guess we just let other teams break the rules and injure our players long term.

My reading comprehension is just fine.

Originally Posted by AcGold

Seriously bring in Kanzig, if someone slashes Johhny he leans over and tells Kanzig the number. Take whatever penalties it takes to deter the opposition. Until we stick up for Johnny there's no hope.

"Take whatever penalties it takes"

Pretty sure that's the definition of Retribution.

[AcGold]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

He's been hurt once in his career so far. Once.
Relax.

Sure if he was hurt in an anomalous play but that's not what happened. He was attacked twenty times in one game with intent to injure, a flagrant violation of the rules that is nearly unanimously ignored. If he's hurt again by this garbage I think I'm done as a fan for the season. What's the point in watching competition if the rules aren't enforced, it's not competition anymore it's selective enforcement.

Originally Posted by GioforPM

You said you wanted someone big to smash a player because they hurt Gaudreau.

ret·ri·bu·tion (rĕt′rə-byo͞o′shən)
n.
1. Punishment administered in return for a wrong committed.

No I didn't but thanks for demonstrating my point. I said we need to send a message to deter the opposition because the refs are not enforcing the rules... but hey whatever this is CP just make #### up. Somehow it's wrong for us to attack them back even though that's exactly what the opposition did to us, just lay down like dogs and lose out the season as our best player doesn't get to play...

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by polak

2. Some people say everything is fine and some people say that everything is not fine and express concern.

You missed a subset of vocal posters on the forum. The poster who loves to be proven right by seeing the Flames lose. In essence, wanting the same team they claim to be 'fans' of to fail. Just so they can come onto CP and say haha I'm right the Flames suck. Likely these same fans don't post during win streaks, but will be the first ones to speak up after a loss. It's no different than the on/off posting of Oiler fans on these boards.

It's quite pathetic I have to say. Not saying you are this type of poster though. You're a self proclaimed pessimist and that's fine.

[btimbit]

Half full for me. They've won 4 of the last 6. At this point if they Flames can figure out special teams and keep a respectable pace I'll consider that a win.