Flames Future: Glass Half Full or Half Empty?

[cross16]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I can't think of any franchise center who played regularily on the 3rd line, particularily at wing at that. One or the other, occasionally, sure. Never both.
.

Tyler Seguin comes to mind.

[belsarius]

Originally Posted by polak

Totally agree. Read my original post. I said we won't really know what we have until next season.

This is hopefully just an anomaly.

Sorry, didn't go far enough back in the conversation. Totally agree with your initial post! I'm optimistic he (they) will bring it together, but you are right if there is little change by this time next year retooling will need to happen.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Not sure about Polak's argument, my position is not the same as his. My argument is that AS Bennett's development as a center is ignored in favor of only Monahan's development, we should lower our expectations of Bennett and put our eggs into the Monahan basket, whatever that may be.

I don't know how you come to this conclusion. Each player has their own development track. Right now, Monahan has 3 years under his belt at center in the NHL, and has been progressing well, but seems to have hit a stumbling block this year, possibly due to a lingering back injury that hasn't fully gone away, but isn't bad enough to keep him out of the lineup.

Bennett's development at center has been much more problematic, especially defensively, and his style of game is possibly much more suited to the wing than center. It allows him to be very aggressive in the offensive zone, which is when he's at his best. His aggressive tendency has also led to a lot of bad chances the other way so far this year. He seemed to be a little better last year, but this is a brand new system.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the team has played better defensively 5 on 5 since he was moved to the wing. He was getting outplayed regularly by the opposition and taking a lot of bad penalties. He needed a change.

The kid is so young that it's likely they will revisit the center thing once he's shown some consistency both offensively and defensively at wing. It's not dissimilar to the Galchenyuk situation.

Right now Mark Jankowski is being developed as a center better than Bennett. Yes, I'd rather see Bennett in the AHL than third line left wing, where he's neither gaining offensive confidence as a forward playing with Chiasson and Stajan against NHLers nor is he learning his responsibilities at his natural position.

Mark Jankowski is also a few years older than Bennett and had the benefit of a slow development track in college. He's also not an NHL player just yet, where Sam Bennett already is and has a full season under his belt with decent production and development. Sending him to the AHL at this point is completely counterproductive, so I have no idea why you think it would help him.

And stop using the "he doesn't have quality linemates" argument. It's bullcrap. They're still NHL players, and if he can't play an effective game with NHL players, that's on him. He doesn't have to score points, but he can still create chances and limit the opposition when he's on the ice.

I can't think of any franchise center who played regularily on the 3rd line, particularily at wing at that. One or the other, occasionally, sure. Never both. This isn't about Bennett's talents for me. It's about the likely outcome of his development. There is no commitment to his development. Bennett is effectively behind Gaudreau and Tkachuk on the depth chart at LW, and he's apparently behind Stajan, Backlund, and Monahan at centre. Somewhere along the way his development was discarded in favor of.. I'm not sure what, because it ain't wins.

Bull#### again. You don't have a crystal ball to determine his future, and you have no insight on the team's plan, but you're assuming that they're not trying to develop him. Why the #### would they be intentionally trying to hurt his development? If he's behind those players at the moment it's because he hasn't shown enough to deserve anything more.

And if you're worried that he'll never be an effective NHL player because of where he's playing currently, let me just say that just 2 years ago Backlund looked like he had topped out as a very mediocre 3rd or 4th line center. Now he looks like a possession darling 2nd line center that makes all of his line mates better. That change happened very rapidly at the age of 25. Sam Bennett is 20. He's got a long way to go before he even approaches 3rd liner territory.

There's no guarantee Bennett was ever going to be a franchise center, no more than Sam Reinhart was ever going to be a franchise center. They're both having the same impact on their teams in roughly the same spot in the lineup right now. I don't think Reinhart's development is being hindered by it.

As for my posts going downhill this year, it's too bad you feel that way but I am simply calling it like I see it. This team won't go anywhere unless they either commit fully to actually rebuilding (as Feaster did) or worse, they blow it up (which I don't trust this management to do well). As is we're on a treadmill, albeit a bottom five treadmill. I can take anything as a sports fan except the treadmill. This team is hitting the same treadmill the Maple Leafs did under Burke. They didn't improve their long term prospects until Burke, Carlyle, and Nonis were all gone.

This is the worst of it all. You really think this team is on a treadmill? You really think they need to blow it up? We're just ending the first stage of rebuilding a franchise that was torn down to the ashes. We are just starting to see the fruits of that rebuild enter a period where they are just beginning to "jog" as Burke puts it. There's still plenty of prospects to work their way onto the team in the future, and they're learning how to play a winning system, but it's still a work in progress.


I mean seriously, you should probably stop posting for a while, because this is bordering on non-sensical drivel. You're not even using any stats to back up anything anymore, which is at least something you provided in the past in order to give some reason to your more extreme viewpoints. Now you're just a rambling angry fan with nothing intelligent to add.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by polak

The tunnel vision on this forum is ridiculous.

What I wrote:

Should Bennett not show any improvement by this point next season, I think that will lead me to believing he will be more of a middle 6 player.

What the blindly faithful see:

Should Bennett not show any improvement by this point next season, I think that will lead me to believing he will be more of a middle 6 player.

No we get it. But you are sincerely worried about that being a likelihood. That is what makes you a pessimist.

So yes. If our players don't progress, this will be a bad team.

No one disagrees with that.

The question is how likely do you see that being?

I see it being very unlikely.

You seem sincerely worried that Sam is a finished product. That worry is what makes you half empty guy.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Calling polak a half empty guy is the most half full thing you could ever say.

[dash_pinched]

Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug

Calling polak a half empty guy is the most half full thing you could ever say.

Especially since we're a quarter of the way through this season.

[Gaskal]

[Cecil Terwilliger]

My glass was half full but it was half full of scotch. After our depressing start to the season I drank it all.

My glass is now completely empty. But on he plus side I've got a wicked buzz.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Not sure about this half-empty/half-full business. The Flames are pretty much what I expected with two exceptions...

A: I didn't figure we'd have the worst special team play in the league,
B: I thought we were getting a legit starting goaltender in Elliott.

... 5 on 5 the team has been pretty good on the whole. Not great but I figured the Flames would be a bubble team which is where I figure we'd be absent the above.

team is -32 as a group .... that is not pretty good 5 on 5 that is not even mediocre. Medicore would be even plus/minus. This team needs to improve to become mediocre 5 on 5.

This is a team that has good pieces for a bad team in a rebuild.... but they have been locked up as though they were good pieces on a good team.

The big 7 that Treliving has locked up for 50% of 2019-20 cap is a collective -38.

Flames fans have suspended logic..... last year was a good team BUT....for Hiller. This year is t is a good team BUT for special teams.

[polak]

[Calgary4LIfe]

Reading this thread just makes me understand why Canadian teams in general are so unwilling to enter into a rebuild to begin with.

Criticism is fair. The team is not playing well, and there are a number of issues with this squad. However, you have to have a general sour outlook on life - or at least have little to no patience - if you can't see at least this as a glass half full.

So we don't have Connor McDiver. So what? Boo hoo. Sorry, but that doesn't guarantee a thing in the NHL in terms of being successful. 29 teams in this league will not have a Connor McDiver or a Sid the Kid in their lineup next season. Maybe some people should bet some good cash on next year's Stanley Cup final being an Edmonton vs Pittsburgh final then, right?

You don't need an absolute generational player to succeed. Crosby has 2 cups now since he entered the league. Malkin was a huge reason why they won the first one. Fleury was a huge reason why they won the first one too. So was their supporting cast. The cup this year was won on the backs of that team's depth as well.

As good as Toews and Kane are, Chicago wins nothing without having deep teams.

Calgary fans should know this well. There was no better player in this league in '04 when Jarome - along with Kipper - forced this team into the Stanley Cup final. They don't get there without Gelinas. Or Regehr. Or Simon. Or Conroy. Or Yelle. Or the rest of the team. They especially don't get there without Sutter coaching.

This team is the deepest team from the first line right through to the 4th line in Stockton that I have seen since the late 80's/early 90's. The cupboards are full of good prospects. The Flames' core - essentially the same Flames' core that made round 2 of the playoffs a couple years back - is young, and growing pains happen.

So Bennett is having what we can say is a sophomore slump - all players that go through it look lousy. I still like his upside, and I would still bet on it. I also like how he is tenacious, fast, and can score 4 goals in a game. Monahan is having a down year? Well, wasn't too long ago that people, perhaps the majority even, were saying Ovechkin is on the downturn, has been playing too physical, and is now almost washed-up with an ugly contract. Who says that now?

If you can't see that a core of Monahan, Bennett, Gaudreau, Tkachuk, Brodie and Hamilton as a young core to move forward with is the envy of most teams in the league, then I don't know what to say. There isn't a single team in the NHL that wouldn't want these guys on their team. Backlund and Frolik added to that core is a heck of a top 9. Sure, there are a few gaps in the top 9 still, but you have capable guys like Brouwer who have showed the consistent ability on a number of high-end teams to help cement it.

You have possibilities still with guys like Jankowski, Klimchuk (who I may add, so many people just gave up on until this season), Poirier (who still has more upside than what people are giving credit for), Mangiapane, Shinkaruk and Pribyl.

You have rock-solid grinders in Hathaway and Ferland - and Ferland has shown the ability to get an entire team off their game in a playoff series, and was the talk of the entire NHL that playoffs, plus he has shown flashes of being more than just a grinder.

The NHL is all about puck-moving defencemen it seems, and look what Calgary has an abundance of. Brodie, Giordano, Hamilton, Kylington, Andersson, Hickey, Fox - a couple may not make it, but Kylington is well on his way, and barring a disastrous injury, he is going to be a top 4 D. Kulak is already on the team, and though he has a rough game here and there, most would say he is looking pretty good.

When was the last time in the history of this team that the Flames had this many bullets in the chamber for goalies? Gillies looks like the future here, but he is far from a lock. Why? Because he may end up getting pushed out by a guy like Parsons. MacDonald looks shaky, and looks phenomenal - no surprise with a goalie his age really, and there is still very good upside. Rittich is adjusting really, really well now and is showing why the Flames went to the Czech republic and signed this guy. Johnson is looking not just like a capable backup, but an actual decent (if unspectacular) starter who can be relied on. Then you have everyone's forgotten goalie - Schneider - who I really like because he never gives up just like Parsons.

We aren't reaching like we were in the young guns era where everyone had to live up to the made-up hype. We don't need to believe that Todd Simpson (who I really liked) is a future top-pairing D. We have 2 of those already in Giordano and Brodie. So they started off badly... where is OEL this year? Lidstrom looked like crap at times too. I will point at the larger body of work that Giordano and Brodie have done and say: "That is who they are", rather than think that they suck after 20 rough games. I will argue that Hamilton looked really good for most of last year too, and has looked dominating at times this year, though inconsistent.

Inconsistent.

That is what you get with a rebuilding squad. Add a new coach to the mix, with new systems. Add in new players. This is what you sometimes get. Not all the prospects I listed are going to make it, but the truth is that the Flames don't even need them all to make it either. Flames can make further signings down the road to plug a hole, make a big trade, etc.

The '02 Flames had little talent and little organizationally. Iginla, Regehr.. some other decent secondary pieces like Conroy, but not a whole lot of talent there. They had LITTLE organizationally, yet through a series of shrewd trades and signings, they built a team that went to the finals, and then went on to add a heck of a lot more talent as the years went on, until the 'core' was just too old. They were considered contenders by.. well.. basically everyone. Didn't guarantee that they would achieve any sort of success, but that is what those teams were up until 2010 or so. I would say that this team is starting off with a hell of a lot more. I think that is a pretty fair statement.

Teams have off-years. Chicago looks like crap half the time. Toews looks nowhere near like a 1st line center. I would bet he turns it around. Getzlaf looked and performed like crap last year to start off as well. Anybody worried about him? Those are high-end veteran players that many label as 'franchise-level'. Heck, some circles thought Getzlaf was becoming THE best center in the NHL for a while. Next season he takes a nosedive (along with the team) for about the first 30 games.

I think we can excuse a bunch of sophomores and 3rd year young players who just saw their coach being canned, and are trying to find their footing again under another coaching staff.

This isn't new to any team in the NHL. I guess the Penguins should have torn it down again and entered into another rebuild when it was painfully obvious they weren't positioned to win another cup, and couldn't do it with two players eating so much of the cap.

Lots can happen. The point is that if you can't look at the organizational depth of this franchise right now, and say that it isn't half-full at least, then you really need a break from hockey. There is a lot to like about this team, and the future it can provide down the road. There are no guarantees where it comes to winning the cup, but this team is very well positioned to become a contender with the core it has been putting in place down the road.

It isn't just half full.. it is 3/4 full, and this team just needs some seasoning - experience goes a LONG way in this league. They also need a good coaching staff. Maybe Gulutzan is, maybe he isn't. It doesn't matter THAT much anyways this year, as they are simply not ready yet. The team is deep organizationally, and is getting deeper every year now that they can draft and develop worth a damn. I like where this team is headed, present success notwithstanding.

[fanman]

Half full. They have a better group of young players than they've had in ages. After this season a few of the not so pretty contracts will be coming off the books as well. I still think the young players will continue to learn and improve.

The team is starting to play much better 5 on 5 which is nice, but specials teams are an obvious sore thumb. They need to fix that however possible, as soon as possible before bad habits become irreversible.

Coming into this year I wasn't expecting them to make the playoffs but to at least show some progression and possibly contend for a wild card spot. It's obviously been disappointing but I still think they can turn it around and come into next season strong. I also expect a couple of kids from the AHL team to continue their strong play and really make a push next camp.

Oh and, rebuilds suck and require patience.
Half full!

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

team is -32 as a group .... that is not pretty good 5 on 5 that is not even mediocre. Medicore would be even plus/minus. This team needs to improve to become mediocre 5 on 5.

This is a team that has good pieces for a bad team in a rebuild.... but they have been locked up as though they were good pieces on a good team.

The big 7 that Treliving has locked up for 50% of 2019-20 cap is a collective -38.

Flames fans have suspended logic..... last year was a good team BUT....for Hiller. This year is t is a good team BUT for special teams.

The Flames have given up 6 empty net goals (and scored none). That alone makes them -36. So, other than that, they are just over zero.

[GullFoss]

Matt Tkachuk - 18
Sam Bennett - 20
Sean Monahan - 21
Johnny Gaudreau - 22
Dougie Hamilton - 23
Michael Ferland - 24
Garnet Hathaway -24
TJ Brodie -26
Lance Bouma - 26
Michael Backlund -27
Michael Frolik - 28
Troy Brouwer - 30
Mark Giordano - 32

Matt Stajan - UFA 2018
Dennis Wideman - UFA 2017
Deryk Engelland - UFA 2017
Ladislav Smid - UFA 2017

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

The Flames have given up 6 empty net goals (and scored none). That alone makes them -36. So, other than that, they are just over zero.

LOL...numbers are hard.

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

LOL...numbers are hard.

6 players on the ice is a -6 a game for 6 games is -36...

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

LOL...numbers are hard.

Is that addressed at my math or ricardodw's?

[N-E-B]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

team is -32 as a group .... that is not pretty good 5 on 5 that is not even mediocre. Medicore would be even plus/minus. This team needs to improve to become mediocre 5 on 5.

This is a team that has good pieces for a bad team in a rebuild.... but they have been locked up as though they were good pieces on a good team.

The big 7 that Treliving has locked up for 50% of 2019-20 cap is a collective -38.

Flames fans have suspended logic..... last year was a good team BUT....for Hiller. This year is t is a good team BUT for special teams.

I'd argue they're not a good team. Good teams don't have the BUT. I would agree that they're underperforming this year, but they're average at best. I thought they should be competing for the 3rd spot in the division.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Is that addressed at my math or ricardodw's?

Ricardodow's. Obviously.

Same story as ever, just an ounce of context in his thinking would go such a long way.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Depends if you think Sean Monahan will miraculously develop into Patrice Bergeron or plateau into Ryan Smyth.

Since Sam Bennett is a 3rd line winger, the glass being half-full or half-empty depends on your opinion of Sean Monahan. There's no McDavid on the way, that's for sure.

Do you really think it all falls on how just these two pieces play out?