I think it's time Treliving starts taking some serious heat

[Ashasx]

I blame Weisbrod's tunnel vision and Feaster's gullibility.

[dino7c]

I hate the cap argument, most of the league is within 5M of the cap...Minus Wideman/Smid and the Flames are on the lower end

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Do rebuilding teams spend to the cap every year, or do they keep some dry powder for when they expect to contend? My biggest beef personally, is how the team has decided to use cap space.

You can't bank cap space during rebuilding years in order to use during contending years. The amount of money the Flames spend during the rebuild vs the contending years is irrelevant.

Far too much overanalysis of our cap situation. We're losing Wideman's 5+ million, Engelland's almost 6, Smid's 3.5 after this season.

[polak]

Originally Posted by dino7c

I hate the cap argument, most of the league is within 5M of the cap...Minus Wideman/Smid and the Flames are on the lower end

It holds water when a lot of that cap is already tied up long term in who you expect to carry this team.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by polak

It holds water when a lot of that cap is already tied up long term in who you expect to carry this team.

Is that a problem? Only if you don't think players like Hamilton, Bennett, Monahan will be stars in this league.

Future looks bright to me. Flames have most of the pieces long term that they need to be a contender. We just need the core to continue to learn, develop and mature. It requires patience which isn't in long supply amongst sports fans.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Rebuilds aren't always linear.

The dictionary definition of rebuild doesn't actually mention small improvements.

verb (used with object), rebuilt or (Archaic) rebuilded; rebuilding.
1. to repair, especially to dismantle and reassemble with new parts: to rebuild an old car.
2.to replace, restrengthen, or reinforce: to rebuild an army.
3.to revise, reshape, or reorganize:to rebuild a shattered career.

Agreed. But last year was a step back, we should be seeing steps forward now. No excuses for being a basement dweller in so many categories.

[polak]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Is that a problem? Only if you don't think players like Hamilton, Bennett, Monahan will be stars in this league.

Future looks bright to me. Flames have most of the pieces long term that they need to be a contender. We just need the core to continue to learn, develop and mature. It requires patience which isn't in long supply amongst sports fans.

Yes. I don't think those players are shaping up to be "Stars" in the league.

Monahan has the highest chance to be as he's already shown he can be an impact player but he hasn't made me believe he can be a star. Gaudreau is a star, Brodie is a star, Tkachuk is showing me star like qualities (shiny new toy perhaps).

Hamilton has not been a good defenseman with the Flames and simply put up a lot of points. Bennett hasn't shown any improvement yet, not writing him off by any means but he doesn't look like he's "figuring it out". He's still trying all of those Junior moves that rarely worked last year. Still lots of time to figure it out but penciling him in as a "star"? Nope, not even close.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by polak

It holds water when a lot of that cap is already tied up long term in who you expect to carry this team.

If the Flames didn't have a ton of bad contracts expiring soon it would be different. "Cap team" and "finished product" are two different things

if the Flames had 5M in cap space right now that would make some of you feel better? why? like others have said it doesn't carry over year to year.

Oilers are so shrewd with the cap...3M in cap space with their best player among others on their entry level deals.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Igottago

Agreed. But last year was a step back, we should be seeing steps forward now. No excuses for being a basement dweller in so many categories.

Frankly, I do see steps forward. The flames are hanging around more I games, the blowouts aren't nearly as catastrophic and the defensive structure from the forwards is much better.

I know some have complained about the lack of entertainment value but I was turning games off under Hartley's last year and first year more than this season for sure.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

You can't bank cap space during rebuilding years in order to use during contending years. The amount of money the Flames spend during the rebuild vs the contending years is irrelevant.

Far too much overanalysis of our cap situation. We're losing Wideman's 5+ million, Engelland's almost 6, Smid's 3.5 after this season.

Except that some of our cap space is tied up long term in veterans like Giordano and Brower whose best years will occur when team is. It able to contend. Yeah Flames have contracts coming off the books like most teams.

But no goalies signed for next year.
And no obvious replacements in the system for all the defensemen we are losing.
And raises due to a few players.

The cap space we did have was used up in part by signing certain players to LT deals. Wish we had found a way to turn that space into taking on bad ST contracts from contending teams in exchange for assets.

But whatever. Zero cap space to do anything this year. We'll see what he does next year.

[Huntingwhale]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

This fan base has truly lost the plot on what being comfortable with a re-build actually meant, and we should all remember this the next time we are crying about management trying to build a winner with aging vets and how much happier we'd be if they'd just commit to the rebuild. That lasted all of one season around her, then right out the window.

Truer words have never been spoken. Excellent post.

Most of us were screaming for a rebuilt not too long ago and complained when management wouldn't commit to it. Here we are, with management seemingly committed to it and it's still not good enough. Classic open and shut case of a Canadian fan base not willing to be patient.

I'm as disappointed as anybody given where we are in the standings. Especially with how our special teams looks. But for whatever reasons some fans got it into their heads that the magic number for a rebuild was ''5 years'' and each year meant you trended upwards. There is a hard reality check happening right now and many see us being a cap team a a sign that somehow this rebuild is over and we ''should'' be a a playoff contender.

Look no further then a team like the Islanders or the Panthers to see just how a rebuild can go. It can take a damn long time. Not everyone is a Hawks or Blues rebuild.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Frankly, I do see steps forward. The flames are hanging around more I games, the blowouts aren't nearly as catastrophic and the defensive structure from the forwards is much better.

I know some have complained about the lack of entertainment value but I was turning games off under Hartley's last year and first year more than this season for sure.

Not sure I agree with that being a true indication of progress. Seems like they are playing not to lose instead of playing to win. Also hard to see the progress when all of our best players look like shadows of themselves. The Flames best players have been unable to do what they do best under this new system/process whatever it is. Sure it might look a little more structured at times overall. Hasn't yielded results though. I've said it before I think there's only been 2 to 3 games max where the team looked convincingly good.

Could it eventually yield results -- I suppose it could. Haven't liked what I've seen so far though.

[polak]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

Look no further then a team like the Islanders or the Panthers to see just how a rebuild can go. It can take a damn long time. Not everyone is a Hawks or Blues rebuild.

Oh okay, so what you're saying is that Treliving shouldn't get any heat cause other perennial losers have failed rebuilds too? So you think being compared to the Panthers and Islanders is a-ok?

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by polak

'06-'07 Philidelphia Flyers. Fixed their team in one off season.

Either way, 4 years or 5 years, our cap and the contract status of our core means we're not rebuilding. Just cause we suck doesn't mean we're rebuilding.

THN just rated the Flames' cap position for next year as 12th best in the NHL. A more positive view.

[Huntingwhale]

Originally Posted by polak

Oh okay, so what you're saying is that Treliving shouldn't get any heat cause other perennial losers have failed rebuilds too? So you think being compared to the Panthers and Islanders is a-ok?

I'm preaching patience. Cleary you are one of those people who has proven time and time again that you have none. You seem to be one of those fans that bought into "the magic number for this rebuild is 5 years or less and that every year should have an upward trajectory". That's what you wanted. Hell that's what I wanted. But that's not the case.

Do I want us to be like the Panthers or Isles? Hell no. But what if that is what happens? Are you Polak, willing to be patient and ride it out? Or are you off the bandwagon and then back on as soon as things turn around?

This site, this fanbase, and this city dedicated themselves to a LONG TERM rebuild the day Iggy was traded. And by far the #1 issue in my eyes wasn't goint to be the on-ice product. For me the biggest issue was always going to be how patient the fanbase was willing to be. Here we are, in year 4 and things look bleak as hell. That we can agree on. Our young core members clearly need some maturing and there are still huge holes to fill.

5 years is no longer the magic number and the upward trajectory now seems to be heading the opposite direction. And a lot of people seem to have trouble accepting that. That's understandable. But this was very much a possibility the day we all sat at our keyboards and said ''We are ready for a rebuild''.

So here we are. Our team sucks. The fanbase is losing it's patience. And everyday on CP is just bickering back and forth about where we should/could be if things were done differently.

Welcome to the pains of a long term rebuild.

[Mister Yamoto]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

This is exactly what I'm talking about. You've chosen the worst baseline to set your expectations. When the Flames made the playoffs they were by many statistical metrics an ALL TIME lucky team. Fans back then were beyond dumb in assessing that season. The Flames got really lucky for a stretch of 50 games. A stretch that no other team in the history of the league has been able to accomplish.

To believe that regressing from that season is a failure of management is like saying that the reason you're losing at the bingo hall is because you aren't blotting the squares well enough.

As another note, in the rebuild I don't much care about winning. I care about setting up winning which is by building. Winning is nice but it's incidental. So if you told me in year three of the rebuild the Flames were a losing team, that wouldn't disappoint me. What would disappoint me is if stupid decisions were being made to win now. Such as holding onto Wideman and Hudler in what was clearly career years for them. Stupid.

Fair enough. But Flames fans are not dumb.

Ya, everything fell into place perfectly in 14/15 where the Flames finished 16th in regular season standings. And then in another stroke of good luck, they drew the Canucks in round one which was a ticket to round two. Miracle season and a mediocre season all at the same time. Yay. It was fun.

They punched above their weight in 14/15 so regression in 15/16 was understandable. But regression meant playing out the string starting half way through the season. And now things seem to have gotten even worse. The 16/17 Flames are done. Might as well start a reverse standings draft watch thread.

I'm not saying fire the GM or trade everyone. I'm saying that this is not going according to plan. And if this is the plan, the plan sucks.

I fully agree that the Flames are two three years away from competing but what worries me is that two or three years ago we were saying the same thing.

[Mister Yamoto]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

This is exactly what I'm talking about. You've chosen the worst baseline to set your expectations. When the Flames made the playoffs they were by many statistical metrics an ALL TIME lucky team. Fans back then were beyond dumb in assessing that season. The Flames got really lucky for a stretch of 50 games. A stretch that no other team in the history of the league has been able to accomplish.

To believe that regressing from that season is a failure of management is like saying that the reason you're losing at the bingo hall is because you aren't blotting the squares well enough.

As another note, in the rebuild I don't much care about winning. I care about setting up winning which is by building. Winning is nice but it's incidental. So if you told me in year three of the rebuild the Flames were a losing team, that wouldn't disappoint me. What would disappoint me is if stupid decisions were being made to win now. Such as holding onto Wideman and Hudler in what was clearly career years for them. Stupid.

Fair enough. But Flames fans are not dumb.

Ya, everything fell into place perfectly in 14/15 where the Flames finished 16th in regular season standings. And then in another stroke of good luck, they drew the Canucks in round one which was a ticket to round two. Miracle season and a mediocre season all at the same time. Yay. It was fun.

They punched above their weight in 14/15 so regression in 15/16 was understandable. But regression meant playing out the string starting half way through the season. And now things seem to have gotten even worse. The 16/17 Flames are done. Might as well start a reverse standings draft watch thread.

I'm not saying fire the GM or trade everyone. I'm saying that this is not going according to plan. And if this is the plan, the plan sucks.

I fully agree that the Flames are two three years away from competing but what worries me is that two or three years ago we were saying the same thing.

[GranteedEV]

I don't have a problem with "rebuilding" so to speak.

I have a problem with this management's definition of rebuilding, which is loading up on over-30 3rd/4th line/3rd pair players on 3+year contracts until there is no cap space to ever have the flexibility whatsoever to make a "Marian Hossa to Chicago", "Mike Richards to L.A.", "Jason Spezza to Dallas" type impact-trade/signing when the rebuild is deemed to be in its final stages. Since the "rebuild started" and Burke was brought in to be POHO, we've brought in Smid, Engelland, Bollig, Raymond, Brouwer, and we even extended Stajan. The Smid acquisition did not even resemble a Jay Feaster move, probably because it wasn't.

There are other teams that are rebuilding, too, some that started around when we did, that are simply much further along. Buffalo. Toronto.

Our rebuild more closely resembles the Oilers' rebuild circa 2014 what with their acquisitions of guys like Benoit Pouliot, Mark Fayne, Nikita Nikitin, Andrew Ference, with term and dollars that put them against the cap while being the worst team in the league. Actually scratch that because they were actually able to pull the plug quickly to flip some bad/not working veteran contracts (Smid/Perron) for prospects/picks. It's scary to think our GM's competence level is close to Craig MacTavish but it's becoming more and more clear. "It's a process" is just Trespeak for "Stay the course and we're better visually". Unlike them however there is no McDavid in our future.

[Caged Great]

Rebuilding is not a linear process where you suck for a bit and then are awesome.

Right now, the Flames have these spots locked in for a while.

Gaudreau-Monahan-Open
Tkachuk-Backlund-Frolik
Open-Open-Brouwer
Open-Open-Open

Giordano-Hamilton
Open-Brodie
Open-Open

Open
Open

Sam Bennett is still a question mark whether he sticks as a Center or Winger, which is why I labelled both the LW/C spot on the third line as open. He'll take one of those two.

The team still has a number of holes to fill. Whether that's through the draft or through their internal depth. You may see guys like Jankowski, Kylington, Andersson, and Gillies take some of the open spots, or you might not.

The main thing is to be patient and see how things sort themselves out. Then when times are more advantageous, make the moves to fix things.

[Poe969]

I think you're bang on CG. The team has some spots filled long term but you know they have a lot of holes too. They need to identify those and target players for those spots either through trades or signings or draft. The fourth line and bottom pairing guys can always be budget signings or fringe prospects but they need to shore up those top 3 lines and top 2 pairings.

The team seems to have had too many fourth line guys and they need to start to target some skill up front not just tough two-way guys. I think it's the opposite on D where they really need to get tougher and not have just smaller or skilled guys.