I think it's time Treliving starts taking some serious heat

[Tinordi]

If I told you four years ago, that by the third year into the Flames' rebuild they'd have a top 10 scoring winger, two very promising and young top centres and two young top pairing D all locked down for the next 4-6 years you'd likely be overjoyed.

All the anger that you have is just irrational fan expectations. Take a look back at how far the organization has come. Expecting to be a playoff contender after 3 years of rebuilding is frankly just dumb. Look how long it takes most teams, it aint 3 years and it certainly aint 3 years for teams that were as badly managed by Sutter/King/Feaster years.

[fanman]

Originally Posted by Jaydee

Just tell me what the name of the team is

The Calgary Flames.

You're welcome.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Can you stop being so myopic?



Players get moved for picks all the time. As the core grows and (hopefully) improves the extra picks can be shopped for older players who can take a role now.

I'm confused about who is arguing what. Is there an argument that we shouldn't have traded picks for Hamilton because we could trade picks to pick up a young promising player instead??

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by edslunch

I'm confused about who is arguing what. Is there an argument that we shouldn't have traded picks for Hamilton because we could trade picks to pick up a young promising player instead??

No. It's basically slowly and simple explaining things to polak.

[Mister Yamoto]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

If I told you four years ago, that by the third year into the Flames' rebuild they'd have a top 10 scoring winger, two very promising and young top centres and two young top pairing D all locked down for the next 4-6 years you'd likely be overjoyed.

All the anger that you have is just irrational fan expectations. Take a look back at how far the organization has come. Expecting to be a playoff contender after 3 years of rebuilding is frankly just dumb. Look how long it takes most teams, it aint 3 years and it certainly aint 3 years for teams that were as badly managed by Sutter/King/Feaster years.

If I told you four years ago, that by the third year into the Flames rebuild they'd be 30th in winning% you'd likely be overjoyed?

Yes by all means, take a look at how far the organization has come. Expecting small improvements during a rebuild is not dumb. It is the dictionary definition of the word rebuild. Two straight seasons of regression is not rebuilding. Find a different word for what the Flames are doing.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Mister Yamoto

If I told you four years ago, that by the third year into the Flames rebuild they'd be 30th in winning% you'd likely be overjoyed?

Yes by all means, take a look at how far the organization has come. Expecting small improvements during a rebuild is not dumb. It is the dictionary definition of the word rebuild. Two straight seasons of regression is not rebuilding. Find a different word for what the Flames are doing.

Rebuilds aren't always linear.

The dictionary definition of rebuild doesn't actually mention small improvements.

verb (used with object), rebuilt or (Archaic) rebuilded; rebuilding.
1. to repair, especially to dismantle and reassemble with new parts: to rebuild an old car.
2.to replace, restrengthen, or reinforce: to rebuild an army.
3.to revise, reshape, or reorganize:to rebuild a shattered career.

[Toonage]

Exactly. I think its a rebuild until we see consistent forward progression.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

If I told you four years ago, that by the third year into the Flames' rebuild they'd have a top 10 scoring winger, two very promising and young top centres and two young top pairing D all locked down for the next 4-6 years you'd likely be overjoyed.

All the anger that you have is just irrational fan expectations. Take a look back at how far the organization has come. Expecting to be a playoff contender after 3 years of rebuilding is frankly just dumb. Look how long it takes most teams, it aint 3 years and it certainly aint 3 years for teams that were as badly managed by Sutter/King/Feaster years.

Add a very promising winger (Tkatchuk) who has established a spot in the NHL in his first year, a group of players with a good shot to permanently make the NHL (Jankowski, Kylington, Andersson, Gillies), another with what I'd call even odds (Mangiapane, Poirier, Wotherspoon, Shinkaruk, Klimchuk, Morrison, Kulak, Culkin).

I'd say the Flames are in OK shape. I think a lot of the frustration on this site is based on Edmonton suddenly having a better record. I think the Edmonton situation is tenuous - they rely on two players heavily (McDavid and Talbot) and McDavid is going to command top UFA-type dollars as an RFA. Not to mention that I think his style will possibly lead to frequent injuries (unlike Gaudreau). Put McDavid on Calgary and not only are they a PO team, they are a contender. Put McDavid on Edmonton and they still might not make the POs.

[Vinny01]

One reason the heat has been turned up is the fact that over half the young core on the team is on their big money long term deals. Brodie is in the 2nd year of a 5 year contract that he signed out of his bridge deal. Hamilton is in the second year of a 6 year deal he signed out of his ELC. Monahan and Gaudreau are in the first year of their long term deals out of their ELC. Gio is on his stat player retirement contract, and Backlund is almost halfway through his deal that takes him to ufa status. That also doesn't include Brouwer and Frolik who were 2 high priced UFA signings that are made by teams that are looking st making the playoffs not rebuilding.

Thanks to 2015 the Flames had to try and accelerate the rebuild. I think the Hamilton trade was a perfect move of win now while also thinking to the future. Frolik was a 27 year old UFA. Brouwer is one of only a couple forwards over the age of 30 and fills a big need on the right side with his size.

The expectation for the fanbase should be playoffs. The fact this is a cap team with most of the core outside of Tkachuk and Bennett on long term deals shows us this. I supported the long term deals for Monahan, Gaudreau, and Hamilton. In hindsight if all 3 were on bridge deals and the team didn't tradefor Elliott or signed Brouwer it would be easier to stomach this team still being in year 4 of a lengthy rebuild. The way this team is currently constructed fans should be hoping for and expecting a playoff team.

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by Mister Yamoto

If I told you four years ago, that by the third year into the Flames rebuild they'd be 30th in winning% you'd likely be overjoyed?

Yes by all means, take a look at how far the organization has come. Expecting small improvements during a rebuild is not dumb. It is the dictionary definition of the word rebuild. Two straight seasons of regression is not rebuilding. Find a different word for what the Flames are doing.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. You've chosen the worst baseline to set your expectations. When the Flames made the playoffs they were by many statistical metrics an ALL TIME lucky team. Fans back then were beyond dumb in assessing that season. The Flames got really lucky for a stretch of 50 games. A stretch that no other team in the history of the league has been able to accomplish.

To believe that regressing from that season is a failure of management is like saying that the reason you're losing at the bingo hall is because you aren't blotting the squares well enough.

As another note, in the rebuild I don't much care about winning. I care about setting up winning which is by building. Winning is nice but it's incidental. So if you told me in year three of the rebuild the Flames were a losing team, that wouldn't disappoint me. What would disappoint me is if stupid decisions were being made to win now. Such as holding onto Wideman and Hudler in what was clearly career years for them. Stupid.

[ComixZone]

The rebuild started on March 27, 2013. We're not even 4 calendar years into the rebuild, and people have already taken a hard turn against pretty much all of the young promising players.



Take a breath. Look at comparables, and show some patience.

Look at Sean Monahan's draft year - he is the best, if not 2nd best centre taken in that draft. No one taken behind him is even close to being as good. You can argue Barkov Vs. Monahan all you want, but the fact is Barkov was taken ahead of Monahan and should be better. Mackinnon hasn't been able to hack it as a centre. Monahan is also scoring at a pace that would see him surpass Jarome Iginla's franchise record for goals scored. This turncoat attitude towards Monahan is embarrassing. Yeah, he's struggling under a new coach, but so is the entire team. Stop singling out individuals.

Everyone throwing their arms up in anger and attacking Bennett/Monahan/Brodie/Giordano/Hamilton/Gaudreau - you're showing you lack an understanding of not only the ebb and flow player development, but also of team development. Showing frustration is understandable, but turning on your own players this quickly, without any actual investigation into why they're struggling, and throwing away previous years of progress...eeesh.

Patience is a virtue, and development paths are not a straight shot upwards.

[polak]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

If I told you four years ago, that by the third year into the Flames' rebuild they'd have a top 10 scoring winger, two very promising and young top centres and two young top pairing D all locked down for the next 4-6 years you'd likely be overjoyed.

All the anger that you have is just irrational fan expectations. Take a look back at how far the organization has come. Expecting to be a playoff contender after 3 years of rebuilding is frankly just dumb. Look how long it takes most teams, it aint 3 years and it certainly aint 3 years for teams that were as badly managed by Sutter/King/Feaster years.

little generous here.

One top 10 scoring winger - Yes

2 promising centers - One and a half, none of which are looking like legitimate #1's.

Two Young Top Pairing D? - One and one that will HOPEFULLY be able to turn into a reliable 2nd pairing guy. Scoring a lot of points doesn't forgive his gaffs.

It's not been 3 years of rebuilding by the way.

Traded Iginla, Tanguay, Sarich and Bouwmeester and drafted Monahan in 12/13. Had all of those trades worked out we could've been competitive a lot earlier so you have to count that as year 1 of the rebuild.

12/13 - Year 1 (25th)
13/14 - Year 2 (27th)
14/15 - Year 3 (16th)
15/16 - Year 4 (26th)
16/17 - Year 5 (Currently 30th in p/pg)

So no, if you told me when we traded Iginla, that 4 years later we'd be 30th at American Thanksgiving and that we had 1 sure fire first liner, 1 sure fire first pairing D, That we had 33 year old Giordano signed for 6 more years at nearly 7 million a year and he was playing like garbage, and then some decent young 2nd line players, I would not be happy.

Gaudreau, Brodie, Tkachuk are the 3 players I'm excited about for this team at the moment. Hopefully Monahan bounces back and brings that number up to 4.... 4 players in 4 years since Iginla. One of whom was already here.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by polak

12/13 - Year 1 (25th)
13/14 - Year 2 (27th)
14/15 - Year 3 (16th)
15/16 - Year 4 (26th)
16/17 - Year 5 (Currently 30th in p/pg)

How do you count the year that the rebuild started in when it started at the trade deadline? That's just not right.

[polak]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

How do you count the year that the rebuild started in when it started at the trade deadline? That's just not right.

Normally. You nail those trades and maybe you're competitive in two years? You count that year since you made the biggest moves of the rebuild in that year?

[MrMastodonFarm]

My thoughts exactly.

Year one was obviously 13/14.

[DJones]

Originally Posted by polak

Normally. You nail those trades and maybe you're competitive in two years? You count that year since you made the biggest moves of the rebuild in that year?

Who do you have as an example of nailing those trades and rebuilding in two years?

We couldn't draft until 2011. That was the biggest problem.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by polak

Normally. You nail those trades and maybe you're competitive in two years? You count that year since you made the biggest moves of the rebuild in that year?

It's Ground zero. It all started there.

Show me an example of that happening.

Regardless though, you can say the rebuild started on the day we traded Iggy - but you can't count the season as a rebuilding year.

...and yeah, Feaster screwed those trades up. Bad. It cost him his job in the end, and we're suffering through the loss of assets.

Eeesh, Hanowski...Agostino...Berra...ugh...

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

One reason the heat has been turned up is the fact that over half the young core on the team is on their big money long term deals. Brodie is in the 2nd year of a 5 year contract that he signed out of his bridge deal. Hamilton is in the second year of a 6 year deal he signed out of his ELC. Monahan and Gaudreau are in the first year of their long term deals out of their ELC. Gio is on his stat player retirement contract, and Backlund is almost halfway through his deal that takes him to ufa status.

Unfortunately just because the CBA dictates our young stars deserve star money doesn't mean they have fully developed into stars yet.

Originally Posted by Vinny01

That also doesn't include Brouwer and Frolik who were 2 high priced UFA signings that are made by teams that are looking st making the playoffs not rebuilding.

I think that is flat out incorrect. In order to execute a successful rebuild you generally need a few high character, solid veterans to show your kids how to be pros, how to succeed despite the pressures to just party your life away, etc.

This is where EDM often went wrong. They got rid of all their good veterans, handed the team to the kids and went nowhere. Ideally you surround your youth with some veterans who can still contribute.

Adding Brouwer, Frolik and Engelland are exactly the types of moves that a good rebuilding team should make in order to surround their youngsters. So I think you are flat our wrong in your characterization there.

Originally Posted by Vinny01

The expectation for the fanbase should be playoffs. The fact this is a cap team with most of the core outside of Tkachuk and Bennett on long term deals shows us this. I supported the long term deals for Monahan, Gaudreau, and Hamilton. In hindsight if all 3 were on bridge deals and the team didn't tradefor Elliott or signed Brouwer it would be easier to stomach this team still being in year 4 of a lengthy rebuild. The way this team is currently constructed fans should be hoping for and expecting a playoff team.

Agreed. I think hoping for and expecting the playoffs is good for the mentality of our rebuilding team. However I think if we fail to make the playoffs this year it does not mean the rebuild is failing, it does not mean Treliving has to go.

Patience is required with a rebuilding team.

[Strange Brew]

Do rebuilding teams spend to the cap every year, or do they keep some dry powder for when they expect to contend? My biggest beef personally, is how the team has decided to use cap space.

Yeah I get it's a rebuild and you need to keep expectations in check but I find it hard to be satisfied when the product on the ice looks like one of the very worst in the league.

[polak]

Originally Posted by DJones

Who do you have as an example of nailing those trades and rebuilding in two years?

We couldn't draft until 2011. That was the biggest problem.

'06-'07 Philidelphia Flyers. Fixed their team in one off season.

Either way, 4 years or 5 years, our cap and the contract status of our core means we're not rebuilding. Just cause we suck doesn't mean we're rebuilding.