It's interesting though that the liberal support of Muslims is often brought up as a big mark against them, but so is the liberal condemnation of the right.
Two very general groups who have the general commonality of anti-liberal views, but one that deserves our acceptance and gentle touch while the other does not.
That's because the condemnation of rural conservatives while supporting conservatives Muslims that hold values that are often far less liberal and tolerant than those rural conservatives is hypocritical.
Intolerance of intolerance, often quoted as justification for the condemnation of conservatives, stops being a thing for many Liberals when minorities are involved, or people who are considered 'oppressed' because of some 'identity'. This is hypocritical, and rightly condemned by people in the center and right.
Liberal condemnation is a big mark against them only because of the selectivity of the condemnation. Any liberal that condemns intolerance even by minorities and other people they might consider oppressed are beyond the scope of this criticism. Someone having some disadvantages is not a reason to gloss over the very illiberal and intolerant principles these same people hold to (as has been argued by others in this very thread in regards to trump voters)
It's possible to support disadvantaged people and call out illiberal ideas at the same time.
You preach a lot about the negative impact of identity politics, the condemning of whole groups, and tribalism. But here you are: the regressive left, liberals, conservatives, you separate people into those groups plus 2 or 3 others and say "these ones are all like this, they need to conform to this group or else they'll die, I'm not like them, I'm in this group."
I totally disagree with your first point - identity politics is exactly about "I'm different from you, so you should be quiet and listen to me" - but this is absolutely true about a lot of people who see the same problems that Cliff and I are worried about. There's an inherent problem with using the label "regressive left", because the moment it's done, it creates an out-group that you're against, along with your "in-group". The "out-group" in this case being people like Cenk, Greenwald, CJ Werleman, Abby Martin... and there it is, we've just created a tribe. It's that easy.
This happened almost immediately after people like Rubin, Gad Saad and Lalo Dagach started gaining more of a following on twitter. I actually called Saad on it at one point, when he was basically smearing Dean Obeidallah in more or less the same terms that Obeidallah typically smears other people, and muting anyone who objected that he was being disingenuous. His response essentially boiled down to "Dean Obeidallah is a bully, and a despicable, grotesque individual who represents all that is wrong with the West. So I challenge him using his exact tactics. If you don't like it, don't follow me, but I get enough hatred from insane so-called liberals who say horrible things to me. I don't need public criticism of my behaviour from people who fundamentally agree with me on top of that. You're supposed to be on my side in this." There was a total lack of self-awareness about what he was actually endorsing.
There are two problems. First, how do we talk about the problems with this phenomenon, this particular strain of illiberal behaviour without giving a label, whether it's "regressive left" or something else? I think the key is sticking to principles - "more expression is better, a vibrant marketplace of ideas is preferable to suppressing ideas we don't like, dead dogmas lead to serious social problems, people rebel when you try to box them in ideologically", and so on - and talking about why those principles are important. Talk about ideas, not people. That's the way to avoid this problem.
Unfortunately, the label "regressive left" describes a group of people who hold a set of ideas, rather than the ideas themselves. But it's the label that has gained currency, and so we seem to be stuck with it. I'd definitely prefer something else if I had a choice.
__________________ "The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
Completely agree with this. Well said. The big question is how do you do it? I've sat in on several meetings with different schools and they are all struggling to deal with this issue. My approach is open structured public debate, but the elements you wish to drag into that are not game for the most part. So what do you do? With the change in tenor on campuses it is not a great environment to be at the moment.
the schools should have never changed. When I was a kid and my brother who is a few years older went to elementary school we sang o canada and god save the queen every morning. Minorities had to adapt and value to Canadian life. I remember being 6 and having a fun part in a Christmas play.
And when I got to university it was survival... no safe-rooms or anything.
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I absolutely agree that it is wrong for the President-elect to embrace those behaviors - and have said so.
I think Trump's campaign - and him, for that matter - was disgusting. The recent flair-up of violent and blatant racism has been disgusting and deeply concerning. There are some very serious underlying problems here.
That wasn't what was being discussed though. The discussion has been about dismissing all Trump voters as racist, or privileged or whatever. And that, IMO, is a big mistake. And only serves to fuel and escalate things.
No one is dismissing all Trump voters as racist. It definitely appeals to a segment of his support, but not all of it. That doesn't change the fact that people. It's for someone who embraced racist ideals and promoted those ideals openly. To me, this is the toughest thing to observe. I've watched it tear friendships and families apart, including my wife's. It has been so damn strange to see people who were staunchly liberal begin to defend the racist rhetoric and overtones. How do you make that big a swing in your beliefs? I know these people aren't racist, they just elected to support one as the ultimate leader of our country. How do people come to grips with that?
Some ugly incidents in Toronto yesterday. It's sad that Trump's election win has given all these closeted racist arseholes permission to crawl out from under their rocks and shout it proudly from the rooftops. Of course this same crap happened in the UK after Brexit, so it's not like any of us should be surprised by this stuff. Still though, it's disturbing and disappointing.
Toronto police have launched an investigation after residents in the city’s east-end found “ultra right wing” posters that urged white people “tired of political correctness” and “questioning when immigration will stop” to join an online movement some suspect arose out of Donald Trump’s U.S. presidential election win.
The signs have a bold headline that reads “Hey, WHITE PERSON” and ask, “wondering why only white countries have to become ‘multicultural’?” and “figuring out that diversity only means less white people’?”
They also called for those with similar thinking to join the “alt-right” political movement on several Canadian and American websites.
A man was caught on camera hurling racist insults and threatening another man on a streetcar full of commuters on Monday night in Toronto.
Quote:
Valeska Griffiths, a freelance writer who filmed the incident, which took place just before 6 p.m. on the St. Clair Avenue streetcar in Toronto's west end, said everyone on the streetcar was horrified by what they were seeing. Griffiths said she eventually lost her cool and called the man a "f--king racist." She said the man responded by saying he was proud of that, then said "Go Trump" — referring to U.S. president-elect Donald Trump.
It's the rebel which many people just dismiss but why the hell are Canadians so worked up over Trump? It's not like he is our leader. Go to the US if you have such a problem with him.
I suppose, the anti-trump speaker should have talked with the trump supporter directly and listened to his issues (specifically the economy). The trump supporter in return will listen. AmIdoingthisrite?
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No one is dismissing all Trump voters as racist. It definitely appeals to a segment of his support, but not all of it. That doesn't change the fact that people. It's for someone who embraced racist ideals and promoted those ideals openly. To me, this is the toughest thing to observe. I've watched it tear friendships and families apart, including my wife's. It has been so damn strange to see people who were staunchly liberal begin to defend the racist rhetoric and overtones. How do you make that big a swing in your beliefs? I know these people aren't racist, they just elected to support one as the ultimate leader of our country. How do people come to grips with that?
Well, I think some feel that he won't govern in that manner. Whether that's true or not, we shall see.
But I would say this also: if he does govern with an exclusionary, racist, or misogynistic hand, it may well - and I will predict it would - result in turning a lot of people off, while also keeping the issue at the forefront of peoples' concerns and of discussion points. Maybe it will result in positive change.
Clearly, the strategy of the extreme left hasn't been working to reduce prejudices, maybe having a horrible leader will.
Extremes, on both sides, have resulted in more extremists on both sides. Hopefully this results in re-focusing the center.
I suppose, the anti-trump speaker should have talked with the trump supporter directly and listened to his issues (specifically the economy). The trump supporter in return will listen. AmIdoingthisrite?
Too late, for a number of people. Like I said, if people stop talking to each other, if they don't have any relationships with anyone except the people who agree with them, you get group polarization and then inter-group violence. Thankfully there isn't that much of it, but it's a symptom.
__________________ "The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
I know these people aren't racist, they just elected to support one as the ultimate leader of our country. How do people come to grips with that?
I think that's a good question. Humans are excellent at subconsciously using any kind of rationalization to justify their decisions (which I think are also much more driven out of the subconscious than we'd like).
I read a number of articles talking to women that believed the sexual assault accusations against Trump were true and still voted for him. Their reasons involved a lot of tu quoque and believing outright falsehoods about Clinton.
But just because one isn't racist, sexist, homophobic doesn't absolve one of the responsibility from the consequences of voting for one.
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Yeah NY Mayor said that they'd wouldn't give up the info to Trump or may even delete their database that contains info on undocumented immigrants that have a city ID card.
I think that's a good question. Humans are excellent at subconsciously using any kind of rationalization to justify their decisions (which I think are also much more driven out of the subconscious than we'd like).
I read a number of articles talking to women that believed the sexual assault accusations against Trump were true and still voted for him. Their reasons involved a lot of tu quoque and believing outright falsehoods about Clinton.
But just because one isn't racist, sexist, homophobic doesn't absolve one of the responsibility from the consequences of voting for one.
I think that a signifiant contributing factor is the power of group-think, which is a phenomenon that is extremely difficult for all people to overcome. It is socially engrained, instinctive behaviour, and I find for the most part that people are simply not interested in knowing why we think the thoughts that we think.
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