PGT: President-Elect Donald J Trump

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

On the basis of how you argue for your points, people will either adopt your message, or recoil. And if you tell them, effectively, "the problem is white supremacy, and you're either with us on this or you're a racist piece of garbage", they're far more likely to recoil.

So you're telling them to sugarcoat it basically?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by rubecube

This is such a weird way of looking at things. Republicans specifically target blacks with racist policies and tactics, but you blame the left for saying "Hey, blacks are being targeted by these racist policies and tactics." What is your suggestion then? Ignore the fact that things like voter suppression are primarily black issues?

Relentlessly suppress any efforts to treat people differently based on their race or gender. You know, what we were doing for decades when society made tremendous progress on social issues.

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

What argument is Cliff presenting here to account for the perceived difference in black communities and asian communities other than race?

Culture.

Can culture be shaped in malign ways by outside forces? Yes. Are outside forces the only way cultures change? Of course not. Was it external pressure that made the modern West the most tolerant towards homosexuality in the world? No. It was internal reform.

If we don't believe some cultures are better than other cultures in certain ways, then we're essentially saying that all values are relative. And in that case, there's no such thing as progress anyway.

The good thing is culture is independent of race, and cultures can and do change all the time. Pretending that the cultures that are doing poorly relative to others are hapless victims with no control over their fate does nobody any good. Of course we have to recognize the external pressures on cultures (and individuals). But that doesn't negate internal responsibility. We can acknowledge one while encouraging the other.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

I feel like you guys are the two happiest people in this thread. Everything you've ever wanted is coming true.

Got any other hyper-edgy hot takes?

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Culture.

Can culture be shaped in malign ways by outside forces? Yes. Are outside forces the only way cultures change? Of course not. Was it external pressure that made the modern West the most tolerant towards homosexuality in the world? No. It was internal reform.

If we don't believe some cultures are better than other cultures in certain ways, then we're essentially saying that all values are relative. And in that case, there's no such thing as progress anyway.

The good thing is culture is independent of race, and cultures can and do change all the time. Pretending that the cultures that are doing poorly relative to others are hapless victims with no control over their fate does nobody any good. Of course we have to recognize the external pressures on cultures (and individuals). But that doesn't negate internal responsibility. We can acknowledge one while encouraging the other.

In your opinion, what's the single largest factor in 'black culture' not 'taking responsibility for their children' and not 'prioritizing education'?

If there is no singular dominating factor, what is it intrinsically about 'black culture' that is so inferior to Asian or White culture that prevents some fromm proper assimilation?

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by rubecube

So you're telling them to sugarcoat it basically?

So you agree with the view that all of the problems faced by black people in their interactions with police is entirely the result of white supremacy, and you agree that anyone who takes issue with that view is a racist piece of garbage?

That's what I'm getting from your suggestion that not saying that is "sugar coating" matters. If that's your view of matters, I think we've reached an impasse.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Relentlessly suppress any efforts to treat people differently based on their race or gender. You know, what we were doing for decades when society made tremendous progress on social issues.

So I take it your against affirmative action then?

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Got any other hyper-edgy hot takes?

Yes.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by rubecube

So I take it your against affirmative action then?

Just to use this to once again clarify my position, because it's a good opportunity: I'm not opposed to affirmative action. I'm opposed to the tendency to suggest that someone who criticizes or opposes affirmative action must be doing so because they're racist.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

So you agree with the view that all of the problems faced by black people in their interactions with police is entirely the result of white supremacy, and if you agree that anyone who takes issue with that view is a racist piece of garbage?

I do think it's primarily an issue of white supremacy, yes. There are a number of contributing factors but at its historical and institutionalized core, it's white supremacy. I don't agree that anyone who disagrees is a racist piece of crap, but are likely incredibly ignorant. I'm open to the possibility that they're not, but I've yet to see an argument which doesn't implicate racism and white supremacy that doesn't also contain heaping amounts of ignorance and white privilege.

[nik-]

[nik-]

We're tearing ourselves apart, just like America!!!

[PsYcNeT]

We were never together.

[DiracSpike]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

In your opinion, what's the single largest factor in 'black culture' not 'taking responsibility for their children' and not 'prioritizing education'?

If there is no singular dominating factor, what is it intrinsically about 'black culture' that is so inferior to Asian or White culture that prevents some fromm proper assimilation?

There's not really an "Uncle Tom" concept for Asians or Whites.

I think that could be one possible reason for assimilation differences.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I do think it's primarily an issue of white supremacy, yes. There are a number of contributing factors but at its historical and institutionalized core, it's white supremacy. I don't agree that anyone who disagrees is a racist piece of crap, but are likely incredibly ignorant. I'm open to the possibility that they're not, but I've yet to see an argument which doesn't implicate racism and white supremacy that doesn't also contain heaping amounts of ignorance and white privilege.

Okay, well I might disagree with you that it's primarily an issue of white supremacy - or at least I'm not totally convinced that that's the predominant factor at play.

The fact that your response to my lack of certainty on the point is to say anyone who disagrees with you is "incredibly ignorant" is pretty much a solid demonstration of the problem. I mean, it's slightly better than saying that anyone who disagrees with you is a racist, as many other pro-BLM people might, but it's not that much better. Why would someone want to have a conversation with you about race if that's your starting point? Sounds like an exercise in being condescended to until they accede to your perspective, and not much fun. For that matter, why would you want to have a conversation with someone who you've decided, ab initio, is "incredibly ignorant"? Sounds like an exercise in pulling your hair out, and also not much fun.

The answer of course is that they wouldn't do that, and you wouldn't either. Now you're just stuck talking to people who already agree with you (or people who take an even more extreme view), which will simply lead to your own views becoming more and more extreme owing to group polarization. Which - to get back on topic - is very "Tea Party" in my view, and one of the major causes of the situation the United States finds itself in politically.

[stampsx2]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I do think it's primarily an issue of white supremacy, yes. There are a number of contributing factors but at its historical and institutionalized core, it's white supremacy. I don't agree that anyone who disagrees is a racist piece of crap, but are likely incredibly ignorant. I'm open to the possibility that they're not, but I've yet to see an argument which doesn't implicate racism and white supremacy that doesn't also contain heaping amounts of ignorance and white privilege.

Wow. How do you not get banned for a post like that. If you don't agree then your incredibly ignorant? Talk about pianting everybody including the entire American police force with the same brush. I think that is actually racism.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

There's not really an "Uncle Tom" concept for Asians or Whites.

That is patently untrue. Black culture has been co-opted time and time again. There's even a common racially charged term that replaces the n word with a "w" that people applied to no less than 2 dozen dudes I went to high school with.

Korean B-Boys/B-Girls come to mind as well.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I do think it's primarily an issue of white supremacy, yes. There are a number of contributing factors but at its historical and institutionalized core, it's white supremacy. I don't agree that anyone who disagrees is a racist piece of crap, but are likely incredibly ignorant. I'm open to the possibility that they're not, but I've yet to see an argument which doesn't implicate racism and white supremacy that doesn't also contain heaping amounts of ignorance and white privilege.

On the other side, some minorities don't like affirmative action either, it diminishes the accomplishment. There could be an amazing black executive who would have gotten there anyways but he (or even moreso she) will always been seen by some as having gotten there because they were black. And that's a tough burden to always fight.

I rode up the elevator one day with a black lady manager in our company. The tv in the elevator had the headline "Alberta initiative to encourage more women on boards". She just shook her head saying "if you're good enough you're good enough, if you're not you're not".

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by stampsx2

Wow. How do you not get banned for a post like that. If you don't agree then your incredibly ignorant? Talk about pianting everybody including the entire American police force with the same brush. I think that is actually racism.

Because that's not what I said, ding dong. Try again.

[Kjesse]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Because that's not what I said, ding dong. Try again.

ding dong? Really?

Time to step back.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

That is patently untrue. Black culture has been co-opted time and time again. There's even a common racially charged term that replaces the n word with a "w" that people applied to no less than 2 dozen dudes I went to high school with.

Korean B-Boys/B-Girls come to mind as well.

How are those related?