Bring back Bob Hartley

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by cofias

I guess we ought to go out and grab Patrick Roy then?

Hartley also won the Cup as a coach.

The idea of him not being a good coach but having these accomplishments is not consistent.

Not perfect, sure. But Gulutzan was most recently an assistant for a lousy Canucks team.

[Huntingwhale]

[cofias]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Hartley also won the Cup as a coach.

The idea of him not being a good coach but having these accomplishments is not consistent.

Not perfect, sure. But Gulutzan was most recently an assistant for a lousy Canucks team.

He won the Cup 15 years ago. Marc Crawford also coached a team to a cup in the same era (and won a Jack Adams for good measure). He's been out of an NHL HC job for half a decade now. Not all coaches are capable of adapting to a new era in the league. Considering the options, going for a younger hockey mind was the right move. It remains to be seen however if GG was the right choice or not.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by cofias

He won the Cup 15 years ago. Marc Crawford also coached a team to a cup in the same era (and won a Jack Adams for good measure). He's been out of an NHL HC job for half a decade now. Not all coaches are capable of adapting to a new era in the league. Considering the options, going for a younger hockey mind was the right move. It remains to be seen however if GG was the right choice or not.

Maybe.

Consider a few points. Every year, 16 teams make the playoffs. 15 lose their last game. There are 30 coaches in the league at any point in time. How many of these have won cups? Considering Quenneville has 3, Sutter 2, and Scotty and Pat Burns are no longer coaching, there are pretty darn few out there.

Certainly having that ring gives you credibility.

Hartley's Jack Adams was not circa Crawford era, it was the season before last. That should help to reinforce the credibility.

And last year the crap start had to do, as the narrative goes, with the 3 headed goalie monster, Brodie injury, Gio return from major injury, and new Dougie struggling to find his bearings.

One knock on Gulutzan in Dallas was lack of identity. A knock on Feaster was the perception he thought they were the smartest guys in the room. To this point, the hire of GG arguably makes it look like Tre is taking a stab at being the smartest guy in the room.

The year before the Hartley team made the playoffs, they were in a lot of close games, and showing signs of progress.

Bob had his best players being his best players and GG has them being pretty much the worst.

Who knows, Glue Gun may get the team to turn it around. But I found it worrisome in tonight's broadcast when they talked about the team liking him
and not wanting to let him down.

I don't see any public declaration of identity, and I don't see any good adjustments to improve, or any comparison of what they are doing on the ice that supports or deviates from that identity.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by cofias

He won the Cup 15 years ago. Marc Crawford also coached a team to a cup in the same era (and won a Jack Adams for good measure). He's been out of an NHL HC job for half a decade now. Not all coaches are capable of adapting to a new era in the league. Considering the options, going for a younger hockey mind was the right move. It remains to be seen however if GG was the right choice or not.

The same things that won 15 years ago still win today. It really wasn't that long ago. I get it if you are like 15 years old, it's a life time, but generally speaking it's still the same game. The same systems and tactics have been used for the past 50 years at least. The athletes are better and the economics changed, but the fundamentals are basically the same.

And yes, Gulutzan has nothing on Crawford at the moment either. If he can have half the career that Crawford had, he will be a good coach.

Also, I love the additional drama by calling it "half a decade" instead of 5 years.

[madmike]

I'm coming around to the realization that the coach really won't matter that much. The players on this team are just not that good.

5-on-5 the team has been decent for a while now. But their special teams are atrocious. I used to think ST was more about coaching, but it doesn't seem to matter who the coach is. The players can't execute.

[Resolute 14]

Special teams is all about coaching. But Treliving kept one of the guys responsible for our bad special teams - Gelinas - and hired one of the worst minds in the game for special teams - Cameron. The players do need to execute, but they also need to be given something to work with from the coaches.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Special teams is all about coaching. But Treliving kept one of the guys responsible for our bad special teams - Gelinas - and hired one of the worst minds in the game for special teams - Cameron. The players do need to execute, but they also need to be given something to work with from the coaches.

I never really liked that Hartley and his guy Cloutier were fired but Flames organization favorites like Gelinas were retained. Gelinas was a big part of last season's poor showing and I feel any new coach should have the right not to be saddled with guys that failed the last head coach.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by bax

Anyone who is actually advocating bringing Hartley back is forgetting how painfully obvious it was that the entire NHL had figured out how to exploit his coaching style

Pretty much bang on. This team is playing the systems that will allow it to succeed. The players need to start executing. This was not the case last year.

The Flames were brutal last season but fans could blame much of that on the goaltenders. This year, we have the goaltending but we're still not winning a ton of games....welcome to a rebuild. We're a ways off yet.

[Vinny01]

The thing I miss about Hartley was the team bringing a consistent effort night in and night out they were always a tough out. Game to game this team looks good to great in spurts and downright awful and lazy at other times.

[CroFlames]

The red snake is the Gulutzan snake.

The purple snake is the Hartley snake.

People want Hartley back? But why?

[DeluxeMoustache]

The green snake is whose then?

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

The thing I miss about Hartley was the team bringing a consistent effort night in and night out they were always a tough out. Game to game this team looks good to great in spurts and downright awful and lazy at other times.

I don't agree with that at all. The Flames were effectively 35-47 last year. That is not good. That is terrible. It would have been worse if not for a bit of a surge during mop and bucket time too. You're not going to see an earth shattering reversal of fortunes in a month's worth of games when you take an honest look at where the team was last year.

Hartley's system was a one and done style of play, especially if he was unwilling to show any ability to adapt or change. I don't see a team that isn't trying this year. I see a group going through some growing pains, learning a new system and trying to become better players.

[killer_carlson]

I think people around here saw a number of core pieces have career years or play to a very high quality, only to have it shattered by league worst, no-longer-in-the-nhl quality goaltending.

I think a lot of people would have liked to see what Hartley could do with this squad and better goaltending.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

The green snake is whose then?

He obviously couldn't repeat the green snake and produced a disastrous purple snake. What makes you think he could have this season? Hartley was done with this group.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

I don't agree with that at all. The Flames were effectively 35-47 last year. That is not good. That is terrible. It would have been worse if not for a bit of a surge during mop and bucket time too. You're not going to see an earth shattering reversal of fortunes in a month's worth of games when you take an honest look at where the team was last year.

Hartley's system was a one and done style of play, especially if he was unwilling to show any ability to adapt or change. I don't see a team that isn't trying this year. I see a group going through some growing pains, learning a new system and trying to become better players.

I am not arguing Hartley had the better system I am saying he had the team putting in a more consistent effort. Some of our top players look awful under Gulutzan primarily Brodie who has been terrible.

Also last season the team didn't have Elliott, Johnson, Brouwer, Tkachuk, Chaisson so I do think the group Gulutzan has to work with is better.

Biggest issue with the team is the top players are horrible right now. The eye test for me is a team that doesn't have a consistent effort every night and under Hartley the effort was there but the system didn't change and they were too predictable

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

The same things that won 15 years ago still win today. It really wasn't that long ago.

The things that won 15 years ago were Roy and Sakic. If it's not for a 0.934 save percentage from Roy, Hartley isn't a "Stanley Cup Winning Coach" and anyone on this board would have won the same Stanley Cup if they coached that Avalanche team.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

He obviously couldn't repeat the green snake and produced a disastrous purple snake. What makes you think he could have this season? Hartley was done with this group.

Disastrous is a little much. The year before last, it was pure gravy. A team that early in a rebuild had no business making the 2nd round of the playoffs and last season the step back was pretty much where they should have been with the exception of the terrible goal-tending which probably set us back a good 7-10 points. After going 2-7-1 to start the season (with Brodie being out btw), the team actually went 0.500 for the remainder of the season (72 games). Pretty much exactly where they should have been and it wouldn't look bad if they didn't overachieve the year before.

This is the year where the rebuild should be showing fruition and now that Treliving hired his guy and supposedly addressed the goalie situation, there are no more excuses.

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

The things that won 15 years ago were Roy and Sakic. If it's not for a 0.934 save percentage from Roy, Hartley isn't a "Stanley Cup Winning Coach" and anyone on this board would have won the same Stanley Cup if they coached that Avalanche team.

And any coach would have sucked with the goalie situation we had last season.

I get that some people didn't like Hartley and I agree that maybe he wasn't the guy to run with long term (I don't know either way), but it's revisionism to paint any of his seasons with the Flames as terrible or disasters. The only thing terrible about last season was the goal-tending and an untimely injury to our best defenseman.

[MisterJoji]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

He obviously couldn't repeat the green snake and produced a disastrous purple snake. What makes you think he could have this season? Hartley was done with this group.

Because we don't have goaltenders that will go out and actively lose games by themselves.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

He obviously couldn't repeat the green snake and produced a disastrous purple snake. What makes you think he could have this season? Hartley was done with this group.

We don't need to revisit what was different starting 15-16, it is well documented.

Some of the off-season moves were supposed to address some of the issues, and the top 3 D this year healthy and ready to go.

Look, Gulutzan's best players are his worst , Hartley got the best out of his top players.