[Rumour] UPD: Friedman: Thinks a deal will get done between Gaudreau and the Flames in the next week

[wingmaker]

Originally Posted by Five-hole

I'm a bit surprised at how concerned the rest of the league (i.e. owners, management) are about this contract. How many players in Johnny's position, that being two years, RFA, no offer sheet eligibility, are also going to be elite players?

The fact that there are basically no comparables shows you how how infrequently this situation arises. Why is it so important to everybody else? This isn't a routine RFA deal like Penner got.

I'm also a bit annoyed that the Flames have to have their best player sitting on the sidelines through training camp (and god forbid, beyond) to fight a fight for the rest of the league.

Precedence. As soon as this contract is signed, it will immediately be the highest contract ever awarded to a player with as little leverage as Johnny has. The higher it is, the more other agents can use it as a reason to hold out for more money. If it comes in under 7, it probably isn't too much of a precedent, because of the unusual circumstances. But if Treliving signs a contract well north of 7 per, there is a lot of room for future RFA's to point to this moment and say, "I want my fair share, too." Precedence is how all contract values are determined. Tarasenko was a precedent and look how everyone has glommed onto that one to make the case for Johnny.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Gaudreauvertime

Why not? Is there something wrong with setting a precedent for elite 10.2 (c)'s? Its not like its a very common occurrence. And the Flames should be making decisions based on their own situation, not on pressure from other clubs.

People throw around the word elite way too much.

Crosby is elite.

Price is elite.

Ovechkin is elite.

These men do things no other player can. Crosby's ppg & defensive game, Price's GAA & sv%, Ovechkin's goals per game..

Stamkos, Benn, Seguin, Toews, Kane, Malkin, Johnny, Backstrom, etc are all great players. If you make them all elite, it dilutes the meaning. Johnny's career high is 78 points. He may hit 100 points. Does that make him elite? Not necessarily.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by kermitology

Ding ding ding ding ding.. this folks, right here, is why you can't give him 8.

I've been saying this for a while. This is an important contract for a variety of reasons and interests as it shapes the landscape for future players/agents trying to accelerate big paydays to players just off their ELC's. It's not like the Flames are the only team playing hardball on this as the Lightning are doing the same with Kucharov.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Yeah, it's frustrating to have external parties trying to influence it. I like how it's fine when other teams escalate pay structures (looking at you Oilers) but when it is our turn, the Flames are held to a higher standard.

Make no mistake though, the NHLPA is likely trying to influence the Gaudreau situation too. Not a 10 (2) player, but what Gaudreau signs for could have an impact on Kucherov (or future 10 (2) players that have yet to emerge). You don't want to be the guy ruining it for the other guy.

There is no reason for the NHLPA to care one way or the other.

Players will receive 50% of HRR this year. Period. Regardless of what these two make.

[JerryUnderscore]

Originally Posted by Five-hole

I'm a bit surprised at how concerned the rest of the league (i.e. owners, management) are about this contract. How many players in Johnny's position, that being two years, RFA, no offer sheet eligibility, are also going to be elite players?

The fact that there are basically no comparables shows you how how infrequently this situation arises. Why is it so important to everybody else? This isn't a routine RFA deal like Penner got.

I'm also a bit annoyed that the Flames have to have their best player sitting on the sidelines through training camp (and god forbid, beyond) to fight a fight for the rest of the league.

It still sets the precedent and even though other players won't be as good as JG, this contract, if it's sizeable enough, will still be used to negotiate other contracts.

"Player X is 3/4 as good as JG, therefore he should get a contract 3/4 as good. JG got $8, therefore Player X should get $6." Obviously that's incredibly simplistic, but that's still the basic idea.

Furthermore, as much as this negotiation is rough for us Flames fans now, if this becomes a line in the sand for the owners and keeps them from torching the season during the next CBA negotiation, then I'd say it's worth it. Missing a few games of Johnny is better than missing an entire season of Flames games.

[GioforPM]

Regardless of whether there have been or will be other 10.2(c) players like JG, this would set a precedent for "normal" RFAs as well, who could say "look what Gaudreau got with even less rights and leverage than I have".

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Gaudreauvertime

Why not? Is there something wrong with setting a precedent for elite 10.2 (c)'s? Its not like its a very common occurrence. And the Flames should be making decisions based on their own situation, not on pressure from other clubs.

Because if you aren't going to leverage the rights granted at various stages the why have them? For shiggles?

[Flash Walken]

I wonder if the Flames are getting some heat around the league after maybe giving some heat to other organizations in previous years about their contracts?

What's good for the goose and all that.

Wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.

[wingmaker]

Originally Posted by Gaudreauvertime

Why not? Is there something wrong with setting a precedent for elite 10.2 (c)'s? Its not like its a very common occurrence. And the Flames should be making decisions based on their own situation, not on pressure from other clubs.

Well of course because it is all about interpretation. You call Gaudreau elite. What about Tarasenko? What about RFA Kucherov? Are they elite? What about the next Barkov or Mackinnon who comes up in the next couple years? Seems like there are a lot of young players who could make a claim to being elite. When you are at the start of your career, you have very little real evidence and a lot of potential, and how your career will go is mostly up to interpretation. Most of the players we now categorize as elite are called that because of their consistency. When you are coming of your ELC, there is no way of knowing which player will be the next consistently great player and which will be the next Eberle. There will always be RFAs with incredible starts who will use this contract as a reason they should be paid more.

[Gaudreauvertime]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Because if you aren't going to leverage the rights granted at various stages the why have them? For shiggles?

But they do get used 99% of the time. But on exception, leverage isn't the most important thing in a deal (as Friedman alluded to). Gaudreau's performance to date puts him in that exception category IMO.

[wingmaker]

Originally Posted by Gaudreauvertime

But they do get used 99% of the time. But on exception, leverage isn't the most important thing in a deal (as Friedman alluded to). Gaudreau's performance to date puts him in that exception category IMO.

I didn't hear Friedman say anything of the sort. Sure, he admitted that Johnny is in an exceptional situation, but he still maintained that lack of leverage is why the contract negotiations are going the way they are.

[JerryUnderscore]

Originally Posted by Gaudreauvertime

But they do get used 99% of the time. But on exception, leverage isn't the most important thing in a deal (as Friedman alluded to). Gaudreau's performance to date puts him in that exception category IMO.

So you want the owners to exercise their leverage in every case except Gaudreau's? And simply because he's a "special" player?

Dude, I love Gaudreau a lot, but come on...

[Gaudreauvertime]

Originally Posted by wingmaker

Well of course because it is all about interpretation. You call Gaudreau elite. What about Tarasenko? What about RFA Kucherov? Are they elite? What about the next Barkov or Mackinnon who comes up in the next couple years? Seems like there are a lot of young players who could make a claim to being elite. When you are at the start of your career, you have very little real evidence and a lot of potential, and how your career will go is mostly up to interpretation. Most of the players we now categorize as elite are called that because of their consistency. When you are coming of your ELC, there is no way of knowing which player will be the next consistently great player and which will be the next Eberle. There will always be RFAs with incredible starts who will use this contract as a reason they should be paid more.

It'd be interesting to see the list of 10.2 (C) players in the past 5 years. I'm betting there aren't a ton of top 10 scorers in that group.

[wingmaker]

Originally Posted by Gaudreauvertime

It'd be interesting to see the list of 10.2 (C) players in the past 5 years. I'm betting there aren't a ton of top 10 scorers in that group.

I think you are being too narrow focused. This contract won't just affect 10.2 contracts. Any RFA will point to this contract. In fact, if you have more leverage than Johnny does, having him sign for more when you have added bargaining power than he did, will give you more motivation to hold out.

[kermitology]

Originally Posted by Gaudreauvertime

Why not? Is there something wrong with setting a precedent for elite 10.2 (c)'s? Its not like its a very common occurrence. And the Flames should be making decisions based on their own situation, not on pressure from other clubs.

Yes, there is. You change the economic landscape for the whole league. This likely has a negative response from the entire league because it means that a player with such little leverage can now point to an example that gives so much.

You think it's just the city that is a cause of all of the Oilers woes? No, the rest of the league wants nothing to do with them because of what they've done to contracts.

Just like the NHLPA pushes for the maximum contract, so too the league needs to keep salaries in check.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I wonder if the Flames are getting some heat around the league after maybe giving some heat to other organizations in previous years about their contracts?

What's good for the goose and all that.

Wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.

I wouldn't read to much into what Friedman said about other teams calling. I'm sure they called and it was a short conversation. Murray Edwards would just tell them I 100% agree. Edwards is heavily involved in CBA negotations on the owners side. I have no doubt in my mind that Edwards told the GM that if its going to be precedent, its not going to be over the top. I always laughed at the couple of posters that said give Johnny $8 million per. Even if flames GM agreed with Gross at $ 8million there is no way Edwards would sign off on it.

[kermitology]

Originally Posted by Gaudreauvertime

Why not? Is there something wrong with setting a precedent for elite 10.2 (c)'s? Its not like its a very common occurrence. And the Flames should be making decisions based on their own situation, not on pressure from other clubs.

Also, since you profess to teach negotiation, I'd like to hear your approach from the Flames point of view. Keeping in mind their cap constraints, duty to the rest of the league, competitive building, asset management, etc.

[Gaudreauvertime]

Originally Posted by kermitology

Yes, there is. You change the economic landscape for the whole league. This likely has a negative response from the entire league because it means that a player with such little leverage can now point to an example that gives so much.

You think it's just the city that is a cause of all of the Oilers woes? No, the rest of the league wants nothing to do with them because of what they've done to contracts.

Just like the NHLPA pushes for the maximum contract, so too the league needs to keep salaries in check.

If I think about it, it's not necessarily precedent setting at all in terms of negotiating based on leverage. Johnny's got more leverage than any 10.2 (C) and most RFAs simply because he's so valuable to the team. The threat of him sitting 10 games could sink chances at a playoff berth pretty quickly, which would end up being enormously expensive to the team.

[polak]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Because if you aren't going to leverage the rights granted at various stages the why have them? For shiggles?

I don't disagree that the different FA status' are important but when you're negotiating long term deals and trying to secure a player through his entire prime, I feel like some concessions should be made even though they technically can hold him hostage until their demands are met. Different story when you're negotiating short term deals and bridge contracts.

That being said, I think both sides will concede and meet in the middle. I'm guessing the Flames have held pat on the Gio cap and Gross is aiming to get Johnny over 7 million. Obviously he threw out a high number to start so that it looks like he's coming down a lot and I think he's having Johnny hold out simply to test Treliving's resolve on that Gio cap. I don't think the "Gio Cap" will be worth having Gaudreau miss games and the Flames will give him something above 7 (but no where close to 8) and everyone will be a happy camper.

I definitely don't think Gross is the fool you're all thinking he is. If he were, he wouldn't be successful sports agent negotiating multi-million dollar contracts. He'd probably be laughing at agents on the internet.....

[wingmaker]

Originally Posted by Gaudreauvertime

If I think about it, it's not necessarily precedent setting at all in terms of negotiating based on leverage. Johnny's got more leverage than any 10.2 (C) and most RFAs simply because he's so valuable to the team. The threat of him sitting 10 games could sink chances at a playoff berth pretty quickly, which would end up being enormously expensive to the team.

This contract is guaranteed to be the largest ever awarded a 10.2 (C) player, provided it is not a bridge deal. That is the definition of precedent setting. If you don't understand that and how future agents will use that as a talking point to push negotiations, I really question your understanding of negotiations.