CalgaryNEXT Discussion pt. 2

[upperloge77]

My vote would be to put the new arena in West Village, fieldhouse goes where it's been planned, and put the stadium on the Stampede Grounds as a replacement to both the Grandstand AND McMahon Stadium.

Some fancy architecture, open end zones (connect the sides with+15's so the Chucks can run underneath and do the loop), Stampeders get a bye week and play a road game in July when the turf is rolled up and they cover the space with dirt for the Chucks/rodeo. Bam. Stamps football games. Dinos football games. 2 weeks of Stampede. Get almost double the event dates of the facility right there. Stampede board can charge for tailgating on the parking lot for home games. And with capacity around 28000 or so, that expands capacity for Stampede and is a workable number for the CFL to drive scarcity of tickets. Get a soccer team and you're up to something like 40 event dates which dwarves the activity of any outdoor stadium in the Country. Add in a concert or two, perhaps a Nitro Circus or Monster Jam, and there's a few more opportunities.

[Coach]

Calgary consistently ranks inside the top 20 (and that's conservative) of the world's most livable cities, and was most recently #5.

Stadium or not, that's world class IMO.

[Frequitude]

Originally Posted by New Era

I had a point by point rebuttal to this, but it dawned on me that this is fruitless. We just have very different expectations. When you think that "festivals" like the ones you outline are major, we have different perspectives, and its all about scales of magnitude. I'm talking about festivals where the headliner draws as many fans as the entire lineup for the Calgary Folk Festival. So completely different expectations.

Fair point. Can't knock you for that and you're probably right. Genuinely curious though. What kind of festivals are you thinking of?

[Coach]

Aren't most large festivals held in some crazy random location. It's pretty rare that they're in a major city.

Sasquatch
Coachella
Bonnaroo

etc.

Even the purely Canadian ones

Pemberton
Squamish
BVJ

They are generally located near a major city, but few actually take place inside the city limits.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Aren't most large festivals held in some crazy random location. It's pretty rare that they're in a major city.

Sasquatch
Coachella
Bonnaroo

etc.

Even the purely Canadian ones

Pemberton
Squamish
BVJ

They are generally located near a major city, but few actually take place inside the city limits.

Coachella is in a major urban environment. Field Day is a major festival that happens in London. Lollapalooza is in the heart of Chicago. SXSW is in the heart of Austin.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by New Era

I would like to know what makes Calgary so awesome that other cities are hell-holes in comparison? Again, scales of magnitude count here.

There's nothing awesome about it. That's my point. I'll take a city that works over one with an awesome stadium or other big dream. Some problems common to American cities:

• They're made up of a patchwork of autonomous counties. The wealthy don't want any of their tax money going to the poor neighbourhoods, which decline into failed communities, while the duplications of services make for chronic inefficiencies.
  
• They have huge pension and benefits commitments to employees but tax rates are too low, leading to impending bankruptcy.
  
• The areas around the downtown are hollowed out wastelands, making urban regeneration a long and painful process.

But hey, I guess if you dream big and build a huge stadium in the outskirts with public money, those problems can be whisked away.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by New Era

Where I live I have options for multiple music festivals every year, seeing the biggest acts in the business. Calgary is supposed to be such a cosmopolitan place they should certainly be able to handle a few big festivals a year? Oh wait, I forget you have no need for a big stadium where these events can play. You have Fort Calgary and Prince’s Island! Who were the headliners at your festivals again? Not quite the same as what a major city can draw.

Where do you live?

Originally Posted by New Era

You need to look around the rest of the world and see the facilities in smaller cities. Glasgow, Scotland, has three stadiums of 50,000 seats or larger, for their national football league. Glasgow is similar in size to Calgary.

Good for them. In 1950 they were the three biggest football stadiums in the world. I don't know, but I'd guess back in the day, the owners of the football clubs built them to make money from the fans who have been cheering those teams on since the 19th century.

Point being that things are a little different.

Anyway, I don't think that anyone is saying "we don't want a stadium". The sentiment as I read it here in the city we are talking about is "boy it'd be nice to have a new stadium, but with the state of the economy in Alberta, I'm not comfortable seeing my tax dollars go to building facilities for the wealthiest people in the province to run their hobbies out of".

[RM14]

I'd gladly go to the saddledome for the next 30 years in its current form. I love that place and I know how to navigate its nooks and crannies without waiting in line or missing any of the game. My season tickets won't hop 30% with a new rink, and my beer prices won't reach $11 till 2024. (Given the 25¢ increase per season we get now.).

Plus, having the last original barn in the leauge is unique, maybe just improve the scoreboard with larger LED screens and we're set.

Oh, and I could really care less about having more box suites for corporate clients who don't make noise and reduce the overall atmosphere of the crowd.

[Mr.Coffee]

I also don't care if the city is known as world class (whatever that even means, literally). If the Flames build a new rink, frankly, NHL hockey will become unaffordable for me because I think the existing value proposition is at the height of its threshold to watch a hockey game live when so many other entertainment options exist.

Like I get similar enjoyment from a great movie as I do from game 28 of the regular season. Probably more actually. It's the playoffs the drive the atmosphere and make the price of those tickets worth it. But they're already flirting with being out of my price range, why would I want them higher in a new rink so I'll never be able to go? Furthermore this team has not had a great track record of playoff attendance. In fact, pretty ####ing poor actually.

I've basically decided that the Flames, their ownership group and players and the league has maximized what I'm prepared to pay for them. We already subsidize other markets, now we need to subsidize our own owners?

Bingo talks about the charitable contributions in the community. I guess. Not sure that's worth the tremendously ####ty deal they've offered. I love how King and CSEC are taking the old "innocent" approach of like "what? We just wanted the city to open a dialogue?'

Well you made a horrendous proposal that doesn't speak to critical infrastructure or existing environmental liability issues, is absurdly lopsided, and unduly burdens the city with cost. Even coming in at 50/50 would have been aggressive. But to essentially pretend that all these major issues don't exist, don't properly engage city council at a reasonable or even logical timeframe to get them onboard with your plan, and then toss out a #### sandwich proposal that looks like the Simpsons monorail episode but worse, was pathetic.

How King still is employed is actually honestly shocking to me.

Anyway sorry, I always go off in this thread repeating. World class doesn't matter to me or many other Calgarians and stadiums aren't going to get us there anyway.

[craigwd]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

The Flames have never billed the field house as an event center. It's the arena they have proposed as the event center. I'm sure larger concerts or festivities could be housed in the field house a few days a year without overly disrupting public availability.

Plus, the Fieldhouse will be much more than just the actual field.
Events can be held concurrently.

[powderjunkie]

I'm not saying the grandstand is an amazing venue or anything, but it has hosted some big motocross and motorsport events.Have they been sporadic and only been moderately successful because of the facility they're in, or could it be there just isn't an appetite for them?

Originally Posted by New Era

I had a point by point rebuttal to this, but it dawned on me that this is fruitless. We just have very different expectations. When you think that "festivals" like the ones you outline are major, we have different perspectives, and its all about scales of magnitude. I'm talking about festivals where the headliner draws as many fans as the entire lineup for the Calgary Folk Festival. So completely different expectations.

Or you could just give specific examples like we've asked time and time again? Someone did some work for you below...maybe you can tell us which ones happen in stadiums (I honestly don't know other than that Coachella isn't)?

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

Coachella is in a major urban environment. Field Day is a major festival that happens in London. Lollapalooza is in the heart of Chicago. SXSW is in the heart of Austin.

Is a stadium the only element we are missing to host major festivals? Or would we need to build a campground next to it? X-Fest, Stampede Coke Stage and Folk Fest are appropriately scaled festivals to a city of our size.

[powderjunkie]

The more I think about the stadium problem, the more I think a partnership with the Stampede is the best answer. Sure, a solution that looks to integrate the chuckwagons as described a few posts ago (and I've mused about before) could work, but I think the better answer is even bolder.

Some might think that eliminating chuckwagon races altogether is a non-starter...but that day probably isn't as far away as many might think. A lot of arguments against it, but there are some compelling opportunities from freeing up the space required for the track. Killing fewer horses each year is also a significant benefit when it comes to promoting oneself as a leader in animal care - complex issue of course.

The afternoon rodeo program is too long. Hauling a stage down the track on a tractor is novel, but limits the show. Weather is the biggest factor on guest experience and impacts revenues (though I'd miss seeing bulls stomp holes in the mud, climate control also helps with animal safety).

Instead of their proposed Corral renovation for more conference space, build a combined stadium/event space. If designed properly, there are limitless configurations that could satisfy a lot of needs.

- Stamps Games. (transit = better. parking = better. tailgating = better).
- Shorter afternoon rodeo, with additional entertainment infused (FMX, etc.)
- Short evening rodeo, with enhanced stage show (or headline acts)
- The rest of the year (and the other 6 days a week in football season) you have huge sq ft with high ceilings (at least one side fully retractable seats).
- When not retracted, you've got great options for theatre seating. Could be hugely beneficial for attracting certain conferences (like the religious stuff that takes over the dome a few times each year).
- Even better, the possibility of sectioning off a 4-8000 seat theatre style space - the type of venue this city needs most, as the Corral isn't a great place for shows.
- Also, Stampede is an industry leader in "premium seating" with Ranahan's and Lazy S. New stadium would include that level of stuff too (in addition to corporate boxes replacing current infield suites). Would be a lot more useful than just 10 days a year and for a few weddings.

Talking about some mighty big air walls here. The indoor/outdoor/retractable considerations would be tough to drill down, but the right compromise could be found. Tons of design possibilities - while it would likely be a full circuit/symmetrical footprint, I would see one side being built more permanently to feature boxes, premium seating venues, better concourse, and better overall seats - ie. the "front" side for rodeo and performances, the other side being more generic, retractable seating (only fully needed for football).


Want to talk "world-class"? Let's get on the same level as Orlando, Nashville, Las Vegas and Chicago when it comes to conference space.

[East Coast Flame]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

Coachella is in a major urban environment. Field Day is a major festival that happens in London. Lollapalooza is in the heart of Chicago. SXSW is in the heart of Austin.

I'm not really sure what you guys are getting at with this "festival" talk...

Coachella is in a polo field.
Field Day and Lolla are held in parks.
SXSW is held in bars.

So I don't really see the connection between CalgaryNext and...Coachella? There is literally no connection between building a nice football stadium and getting a major festival like those in Calgary.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Bingo talks about the charitable contributions in the community. I guess. Not sure that's worth the tremendously ####ty deal they've offered. I love how King and CSEC are taking the old "innocent" approach of like "what? We just wanted the city to open a dialogue?'

You guess?

That's nice of you.

They walked out a concept with an opening funding model. Nobody comes in with "the deal" when you kick off a negotiation. They're smart enough to know the city wasn't going to say "SURE!" and the whole thing would be done.

This is like the Gaudreau/Flames discussion all over again. You have to get things rolling with a structure and then either say we have no interest in this project at all, or we do but with these changes.

I really don't have a problem with any one that doesn't want tax payer dollars in facilities, I get it. I also don't have a problem with the Flames ownership looking to find a mixture of public and private funding to get Calgary something that could take the city forward. It's happened in other markets (one 3 hours from here) and they'd be stupid not to ask for it.

[Tinordi]

Thing is Bingo, to have a negotiation you have to have two sides that both want something. It doesn't appear like the city is really getting anything that it wants. It wants a dedicated public-use field house, CalgaryNEXT doesn't have that. It wants to continue developing the east village, CalgaryNEXT works against that. It wants to build its tax base with the west village redevelopment, CalgaryNEXT doesn't do that.

So yeah, its looking like the City has no interest in this project at all and why should they?

[Table 5]

Based on what's happened elsewhere, the Flames would be stupid not to ask for tax-payer money, but the City would be stupid to say yes for the very same reason. While the team up north got a new stadium out of it, the taxpayers sure did get screwed.

And again...it's not a negotiation. What this is, is a sales pitch. The City does not need this stadium/arena combo, as they already have a plan for West Village and a field-house that can be executed without any Flames involvement at all. The Flames are the ones who are looking to disrupt those plans, so they are the ones who need to make sure it is enticing enough.

If the Flames want to build out CalgaryNext, they need to give the city something it wouldn't have otherwise. As of now, all they are doing is asking. Civic pride is not good enough when you're talking about hundreds of millions of dollars.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Frequitude

Fair point. Can't knock you for that and you're probably right. Genuinely curious though. What kind of festivals are you thinking of?

Festivals I can't comment on, and I'm dating myself severely, but there have been a fair number of big acts that skipped Calgary and went to Edmonton to play at an outdoor stadium. Bowie, the Stones, etc. That said, maybe outdoor stadium concerts are passe.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Based on what's happened elsewhere, the Flames would be stupid not to ask for tax-payer money, but the City would be stupid to say yes for the very same reason. While the team up north got a new stadium out of it, the taxpayers sure did get screwed.

And again...it's not a negotiation. What this is, is a sales pitch. The City does not need this stadium/arena combo, as they already have a plan for West Village and a field-house that can be executed without any Flames involvement at all. The Flames are the ones who are looking to disrupt those plans, so they are the ones who need to make sure it is enticing enough.

If the Flames want to build out CalgaryNext, they need to give the city something it wouldn't have otherwise. As of now, all they are doing is asking. Civic pride is not good enough when you're talking about hundreds of millions of dollars.

Can you explain to me how taxpayers in Edmonton got screwed. I have several acquaintances up there and this has been the most excited I have seen them in regards to the city ever. Despite the provincial economy in shambles it's night and day how much more positive things are in Edmonton these days compared to Calgary.

What did this arena and the subsequent area development exactly rob from the taxpayers? How would things be better if it never happened? It appears the entire project has revitalized the city and I don't know if you can put a price on that.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Can you explain to me how taxpayers in Edmonton got screwed. I have several acquaintances up there and this has been the most excited I have seen them in regards to the city ever. Despite the provincial economy in shambles it's night and day how much more positive things are in Edmonton these days compared to Calgary.

What did this arena and the subsequent area development exactly rob from the taxpayers? How would things be better if it never happened? It appears the entire project has revitalized the city and I don't know if you can put a price on that.

Holy hyperbole train Batman! I know you want this project basically as badly as anyone has ever wanted anything, but don't be absurd.

[nik-]

Some guys are excited! Cut the check City of Calgary!