Flames stars Sean Monahan and Johnny Gaudreau stick together

[Gaudreauvertime]

Originally Posted by MattyC

You are not an 80 point player unless you've scored 80 pts, regardless of PPG. I love Johnny, I think he could be a 100 pt player. Could be, but he is not. This is like Oil fans claiming Hall is a 30 goal scorer when he has, in fact, never done that.

Monahan is being paid as the just slightly best version of the players who are his best comparables (Forsberg, Mackinnon), which is pretty much right where he has proven to be. Elite two-way centers, at current market price, are 8-10 million dollars. Their names are Toews, Crosby, Kopitar, and Monahan is not being paid like them.

Would you disagree that Gaudreau is capable of scoring 80+ points? If we are using external benchmarks for Gaudreau like Mackinnon and Forsberg, Gaudreau should get paid at least what Tarasenko got, probably a bit more as he finished higher in the scoring race.

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by MattyC

You are not an 80 point player unless you've scored 80 pts, regardless of PPG. I love Johnny, I think he could be a 100 pt player. Could be, but he is not. This is like Oil fans claiming Hall is a 30 goal scorer when he has, in fact, never done that.

Monahan is being paid as the just slightly best version of the players who are his best comparables (Forsberg, Mackinnon), which is pretty much right where he has proven to be. Elite two-way centers, at current market price, are 8-10 million dollars. Their names are Toews, Crosby, Kopitar, and Monahan is not being paid like them.

If Hall played 80 games and scored 29 goals then I think people would cut Oiler fans some slack when they called him a 30 goal scorer but he hasn't. Gaudreau has played at PPG for close to 80 games so yes it's fair to call him a 80 point player.

[Cole436]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

If Hall played 80 games and scored 29 goals then I think people would cut Oiler fans some slack when they called him a 30 goal scorer but he hasn't. Gaudreau has played at PPG for close to 80 games so yes it's fair to call him a 80 point player.

Did Lemiuex score 200 points or 199?

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Gaudreauvertime

Would you disagree that Gaudreau is capable of scoring 80+ points? If we are using external benchmarks for Gaudreau like Mackinnon and Forsberg, Gaudreau should get paid at least what Tarasenko got, probably a bit more as he finished higher in the scoring race.

No. Gaudreau is very likely a consistent 80 pt player. As I said, I think he's a 100 pt player with the right team around him.

Pretty much everyone seems to agree it would be around the Tarasenko deal or maybe a bit less. So I'm not sure who you are arguing with.

Any talk of a Gio cap is ridiculous IMO. It flies in the face of the message from the Flames organization from top to bottom, would hinder the teams ability to compete on the ice, and is something each of Burke, Treliving and Gio would be disgusted with. It just can't be a thing. If Gaudreau signs long term for anything less than 7, Brad is Xavier, just telling people what to do.

[Gaudreauvertime]

Originally Posted by MattyC

No. Gaudreau is very likely a consistent 80 pt player. As I said, I think he's a 100 pt player with the right team around him.

Pretty much everyone seems to agree it would be around the Tarasenko deal or maybe a bit less. So I'm not sure who you are arguing with.

Any talk of a Gio cap is ridiculous IMO. It flies in the face of the message from the Flames organization from top to bottom, would hinder the teams ability to compete on the ice, and is something each of Burke, Treliving and Gio would be disgusted with. It just can't be a thing. If Gaudreau signs long term for anything less than 7, Brad is Xavier, just telling people what to do.

I'm debating the idea that its careless to offer him 7M-8M a year. He had a better year in his contract year than Tarasenko, and its a year later with inflation, so he should absolutely get paid Tarasenko money or more. If I were Gaudreau's agent, I'd be arguing that perspective.

[Vinny01]

I hope the Flames reward Johnny with the biggest contract in Flames history. 8 years $60M same deal as Tarasenko. The deal solidifies him as the face of the franchise for the next 8 years and shows the fans the organization is committed to winning as well as entertaining the fans.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Gaudreauvertime

I'm debating the idea that its careless to offer him 7M-8M a year. He had a better year in his contract year than Tarasenko, and its a year later with inflation, so he should absolutely get paid Tarasenko money or more. If I were Gaudreau's agent, I'd be arguing that perspective.

Based on your posts so far, I suspect you are Gaudreau's agent.

I think you are going to be disappointed when he signs.

[Gaudreauvertime]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Based on your posts so far, I suspect you are Gaudreau's agent.

I think you are going to be disappointed when he signs.

The lower the better, means more cap space to squeeze in Bennett next year. I just don't think its reasonable to expect <7M for anything beyond 5 years.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Gaudreauvertime

I'm debating the idea that its careless to offer him 7M-8M a year. He had a better year in his contract year than Tarasenko, and its a year later with inflation, so he should absolutely get paid Tarasenko money or more. If I were Gaudreau's agent, I'd be arguing that perspective.

I don't think Johnny should get Tarasenko money. Yeah, the point totals are there, but Tarasenko scores more goals than Johnny. A 40 goal winger should get about 7-7.5MM. A 30 goal winger? 6.375 to 7MM.

[Gaudreauvertime]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

I don't think Johnny should get Tarasenko money. Yeah, the point totals are there, but Tarasenko scores more goals than Johnny. A 40 goal winger should get about 7-7.5MM. A 30 goal winger? 6.375 to 7MM.

Well Tarasenko was only a 37 goal scorer when he signed that deal. But if you consider him a 40 goal scorer, I suppose Gaudreau is a 80+ point player?

Gaudreau has been better at every development year in his NHL career.

Look at the contracts that are going to 80+ point players. If you think 6.375 - 7M doesn't make any sense at all.

Like I said, if that's the position being taken by Treliving, then its no wonder we are talking about a potential hold out with Gaudreau.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Gaudreauvertime

Well Tarasenko was only a 37 goal scorer when he signed that deal. But if you consider him a 40 goal scorer, I suppose Gaudreau is a 80+ point player?

Gaudreau has been better at every development year in his NHL career.

Look at the contracts that are going to 80+ point players. If you think 6.375 - 7M doesn't make any sense at all.

Like I said, if that's the position being taken by Treliving, then its no wonder we are talking about a potential hold out with Gaudreau.

Again, he is not (yet) an 80+ point player.

And if you look at guys that are making $8M+, they all have a longer track record than Gaudreau, and they typically have playoff success on their resume as well.

He is not going to get more money than Tarasenko - he will get less. And if his camp thinks he should get more, the Flames will be starting the season without him.

[Gaudreauvertime]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Again, he is not (yet) an 80+ point player.

And if you look at guys that are making $8M+, they all have a longer track record than Gaudreau, and they typically have playoff success on their resume as well.

That's because none of those guys were 80 point players at the age of 22. If anything, those guys are getting paid for the type of player they have been, not for what they will continue to be. Gaudreau has plenty long track record - he's been a 75+ point player for the last 155 games of his career, including a rookie campaign where he played half the year getting 2nd/3rd line minutes with 2nd/3rd line players.

If we doubt that he is that type of player, we should trade him to one of the various teams value him at that level, that would be willing to part with significant assets for him.

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

He is not going to get more money than Tarasenko - he will get less. And if his camp thinks he should get more, the Flames will be starting the season without him.

Just like Tarasenko was not (yet) a 40 goal scorer.

I see no logical argument against Gaudreau getting at least Tarasenko money.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Again, he is not (yet) an 80+ point player.

And if you look at guys that are making $8M+, they all have a longer track record than Gaudreau, and they typically have playoff success on their resume as well.

He is not going to get more money than Tarasenko - he will get less. And if his camp thinks he should get more, the Flames will be starting the season without him.

I don't disagree with what you are saying, and I actually think you are highlighting the exact reason this deal isn't done yet.

But what you aren't acknowledging in you post, is we are literally at the foreground or the starting point of a new "contract type" (don't know what else to call it) in the NHL. It's the reason a lot of these RFA contracts are taking longer to sign. Teams are asking and looking to lock up very young players long term. So they are essentially paying them on anticipated potential versus past performance. True previous $8M contracts have all gone to more "proven" players, but the NHL is changing. Teams are trying to identify their key players early, and lock them in.

Gaudreau is absolutely sitting in his seat going, in a few short years, I will absolutely prove I'm worth $8M plus. So if you'd like to lock me in for 8 years, you are going to pay me like I've proven I'm worth that. If you aren't prepared to do that, then I'll sign a shorter deal and prove to you I'm worth the dough.

I'm not saying he's going to get $8M plus, clearly the Flames have lots of reasons to not want to do that, and you've highlighted them. But to simply say $8M plus contracts only go to proven players doesn't acknowledge the fact that clearly we are at the forefront of an evolution in who gets paid in the NHL and how teams are looking to manage their assets.

[TheScorpion]

Guys, are we really debating the semantics of what really defines an 80-point player? Even for the summer, this is weeeeeak.

And Cro, you can't be talking straight if you don't believe Gaudreau will be more than a career 60-point player.

Tarasenko money is absolutely appropriate. I just want Johnny to get money. He really deserves it. He's been playing hard against odds since he was a kid. I really, really hope the Flames' brass pays him.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Tarasenko has a cap hit of 7.5 for 8 years, which crept up that high because it bought three years of free agency.

Gaudreau getting Tarasenko money is fine, as long as Gaudreau takes Tarasenko's 5.5 in years six and eight too.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

I just want Johnny to get money. He really deserves it. He's been playing hard against odds since he was a kid. I really, really hope the Flames' brass pays him.

#PrayforJohnny

You make him sound like a Make-A-Wish child.

[formulate]

Any talk of a Gio cap stems from Brodie's extension. The first year of that extension (2015-16) was for 3.9 million, which was below what Giordano made in that same year. I believe it was described as a 'tip of the cap' to the captain.

No comment on whether that same cap-tip will be performed by Gaudreau and his agent.

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

#PrayforJohnny

You make him sound like a Make-A-Wish child.

For only as little as a million dollars a day, you can support little Johnny as he strives to fulfill his lifelong dream. Little Johnny has been small for his age since childhood, and with your small, yet helpful donation, you can play a vital part in achieving his goal.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

I don't disagree with what you are saying, and I actually think you are highlighting the exact reason this deal isn't done yet.

But what you aren't acknowledging in you post, is we are literally at the foreground or the starting point of a new "contract type" (don't know what else to call it) in the NHL. It's the reason a lot of these RFA contracts are taking longer to sign. Teams are asking and looking to lock up very young players long term. So they are essentially paying them on anticipated potential versus past performance. True previous $8M contracts have all gone to more "proven" players, but the NHL is changing. Teams are trying to identify their key players early, and lock them in.

Gaudreau is absolutely sitting in his seat going, in a few short years, I will absolutely prove I'm worth $8M plus. So if you'd like to lock me in for 8 years, you are going to pay me like I've proven I'm worth that. If you aren't prepared to do that, then I'll sign a shorter deal and prove to you I'm worth the dough.

I'm not saying he's going to get $8M plus, clearly the Flames have lots of reasons to not want to do that, and you've highlighted them. But to simply say $8M plus contracts only go to proven players doesn't acknowledge the fact that clearly we are at the forefront of an evolution in who gets paid in the NHL and how teams are looking to manage their assets.

There have been a significant number of contracts signed this summer by young players that would fit your narrative:

MacKinnon, Schiefele, Forsberg, Barkov, Tarsenko, and now Monahan

The best comparables out of that group are likely Forsberg and Tarasenko, as they are wingers. We could probably include MacKinnon as well, as he has played wing for much of his career.

I would argue that STL overpaid for Tarasenko, when you compare his contract to all the others.

I would further argue that Gaudreau deserves something in between what Forsberg and Tarasenko got.

Anyone that thinks that Gaudreau deserves significantly more than the group above, is likely going to be disappointed.

[Gaudreauvertime]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

There have been a significant number of contracts signed this summer by young players that would fit your narrative:

MacKinnon, Schiefele, Forsberg, Barkov, Tarsenko, and now Monahan

The best comparables out of that group are likely Forsberg and Tarasenko, as they are wingers. We could probably include MacKinnon as well, as he has played wing for much of his career.

I would argue that STL overpaid for Tarasenko, when you compare his contract to all the others.

I would further argue that Gaudreau deserves something in between what Forsberg and Tarasenko got.

Anyone that thinks that Gaudreau deserves significantly more than the group above, is likely going to be disappointed.

How is Tarasenko overpaid? He's easily the best offensive player from that group of players, and Gaudreau is even better.

I'm not even sure how you can say that he deserves something between Forsberg and anybody. He's been a much more productive player than Forsberg. There is no comparison to be made there.