The failure of Liberalism (Regressive left) to deal with Islam

[Itse]

Originally Posted by nik-

I'm in no way doing that. My entire stance in this is that the religion has bad ideas in it and they should be completely open to criticism.

Okay, I misunderstood you, sorry.

Not that the entire religion is bad ideas.

Yeah I didn't think that at any point.

[PsYcNeT]

Oh neat Naga came to thread#### about how anti-Zionism is apparently anti-Semitism.

His view includes natural-born Jews against Zionism as well as I've found out in the past.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Itse

The whole thing is worth listening to. There are three panelists who were all brought up as Muslims, and all with different views on Islam. Nawaz is sort of the middle guy, who is neither for nor against the notion that Islam is a religion of violence.

To me, the issue isn't whether Islam is a religion of violence or of jihad. The issue is that most Muslims place the Koran and sharia Islam higher than any secular authority, and that means Muslim majority countries can't move beyond the middle ages in social and economic development. At one time, the Ottoman Turks were the most technologically advanced society on earth. But when the European scientists of the Enlightenment were laying the foundations of modern physics and medicine, the Sultans were smashing observatories and burning books.

Can someone name me a majority Muslim country that is more liberal today than it was 30 years ago? Maybe Iran, but it's still not as liberal as it was 50 years ago. No Muslim countries are. Isn't that a problem? Doesn't the fact virtually no patents are filed in Muslim countries play a role in their failure to achieve prosperity?

And maybe the biggest factor in the failure of the Muslim world to modernize is the extraordinarily high birth rate. There's a strong correlation between declining birth rates, increased female education, and economic prosperity. The Muslim world is on the wrong side of all those equations. Iran, Egypt, and Turkey all had a class of secular, liberal citizens in the mid 20th century. But that Westernized class soon had Western birth rates, while the uneducated and highly religious rural populations were still having 4-6 kids per family. Now they've swamped the Westernized class, and hobbled any hopes those countries have of modernization.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The issue is that most Muslims place the Koran and sharia Islam higher than any secular authority,

I don't think this is false, but I think it's a problematic view.

First of all it's impossible to truly prove it statistically. It's not really something a questionnaire can tackle. (People are quite prone to answer that yes, they think it's more important to do what's morally right, but not that many people actually act accordingly. The connection of religion and morality is also a very complex one. Etc etc.)

Then you need to add that many Muslims live in countries where religious fundamentalist violence is a very real threat, so the difference between religious authorities that demand you follow the Quran and secular authorities that demand you follow the written law isn't that great.

And I think most importantly, most Muslims live in countries that have legitimately terrible governments that no sane people should trust.

This also ties into a problem that is often talked about in research into radicalization.

In many countries Mosques are the only places where you can safely criticize the government or the society in general. The natural result of this is that in those countries, the most prominent critics of the admittedly s*** governments tend to be Imams or other strongly religious people. This fact also draws people with grievances to meet each other in Mosques. Which creates the problem that all too often, those young angry men looking for answers and a way to turn their frustration into action are offered only religiously colored solutions and goals.

Can someone name me a majority Muslim country that is more liberal today than it was 30 years ago?

Bangladesh, Indonesia? I would probably say Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan and Uzbekistan too, although I am far from certain as I don't know that much about those countries.

And maybe the biggest factor in the failure of the Muslim world to modernize is the extraordinarily high birth rate. There's a strong correlation between declining birth rates, increased female education, and economic prosperity. The Muslim world is on the wrong side of all those equations.

This I think is a very good point. It's especially relevant IMO that the Arab baby boom generation is at it's peak right now. The ratio of young vs. old is extremely twisted, yet almost all the political power lies with the older generations, and the oppressive nature of many of those countries offer very few prospects of a better future for all those young people. This creates a lot of tension and frustration that easily turns into radicalism and violence.

But that Westernized class soon had Western birth rates, while the uneducated and highly religious rural populations were still having 4-6 kids per family. Now they've swamped the Westernized class, and hobbled any hopes those countries have of modernization.

I'm pretty sure it's not at all that simple, because the exact same situation has been true in every western nation at some point in their history. Religious families that produce lots of children also produce tons of ex-muslims and many of the most fervently anti-religious people you can find. (Exactly like they do in the west.)

It's also important to remember that the educated kids of secularized parents can also easily turn towards radicalism and terrorism. This often happens at some point during their education, as they start to realize their lack of further opportunities in their societies, and then go find others who share their grievances. Typically in those Mosques.

This is just one more reason why so many researchers talk of the importance of strengthening the civil societies in Arab countries, to create those other safe spaces outside of religious surroundings.

It's also unfortunately obvious that no foreign governments are seriously interested in supporting such initiatives.

Pretty much without fail, the political movements that are born from non-religious starting points have started to demand both of these two things (among many, many other): 1) That foreign governments do not interfere with their countries politics 2) That their countries should stop exporting natural resources as raw materials, but instead should seek more economic independence by developing their own refineries and selling refined products.

Obviously if those latter movements came to power in all those Muslim countries that still essentially serve as colonies for foreign powers (in terms of selling us raw natural resources) they might seriously damage our economies and very likely would decimate many of our big corporations.

Also, just think what the world would be like if the Middle-East not only controlled the oil, but also an equivalent portion of the worlds gasoline. If you think they have too much money and power now...

[Itse]

Also, Corsi PM:d me this, and agreed that I could share it.

Nik ... is thinking of the Intelligence Squared debate which took place a couple of years earlier. You posted the Richmond forum debate. Nawaz clarified his view in his book with Harris, Islam and the Future of Tolerance, published last October:

Quote:

[Crumpy-Gunt]

Originally Posted by jammies

Judging from your disdain for everyone you've interacted with here, this can only be read as saying you hate Jewish people.

It's probably because you're a privileged right-wing stooge who mistakes his personal experiences and prejudices for unique insight. Don't think you're fooling anyone by calling out everyone else as crypto-fascists, your own lack of empathy for all that dare to disagree with your fatuous boogeyman theories reveals the true xenophobe here.

Hahaha. This just made my day. You've come to the conclusion that I have disdain for everyone I've interacted with in here but in all honesty, I think Itse and Pepsi are cool. The rest of these people are the same ones who camp out in the threads on native american imagery in sports, police shootings, global events of terrorism, etc. I've seen their opinions and I dont think they are crypto-fascists at all (but they easily could be), I think many of these people are just stupid and that in my experience people who hold these kinds of views and are so adamant there will be some kind of clash of civilizations are normally right wing white nationalist types..

I think they are extremely biased and uninformed/unexposed about certain things. Their references for their beliefs on 2 billion people are names like Hitchens and Harris/Nawaz along with several studies and articles. I'm mostly here to troll and criticize some of the posters on here for their ludicrous beliefs.

I assume you dont actually understand the true definition of a xenophobe if you think I have produced any xenophobic posts. I made a statement about Zionism because I knew our resident right wing Zionist on this board was lurking in the thread (Waza). It worked and I got a reaction out of him. He hinted at me being an anti-Semite because I used the word Zionist in a critical manner. I am a Semite. You think I am self hating? I actually LOVE Jews. I dont hate anybody for their race religion or ethnicity. I have a problem with closet nazis who preach impending clashes of civilization and think Islam as a religion needs to be 'dealt with'.

Also not only has every Jewish person I've met been really good to me but I genuinely think they are a smart people who have done a lot for humanity if you look at their small numbers and the fact they are among some of the greatest minds and innovators in recent history despite all the hate they get.

Zionists are usually right wing bible thumpers who believe the country called Israel is the exact same thing as the tribe called Israel mentioned in the old testament. So they want to basically help the modern day Israel commit crimes against the local people there because they believe in some wicked bible prophecies about ancient temples and the whole world being against Israel (in the old testament). They equate that with the modern day Israel and the hostility it faces from neighboring Arab/Muslim nations. Super Zionists are 100% crazy as you can tell by Waza calling everyone who criticizes Zionism an anti-Semite.

[nik-]

nm, I'm done wasting time with this obvious troll idiot.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Itse

Pretty much without fail, the political movements that are born from non-religious starting points have started to demand both of these two things (among many, many other): 1) That foreign governments do not interfere with their countries politics 2) That their countries should stop exporting natural resources as raw materials, but instead should seek more economic independence by developing their own refineries and selling refined products.

Obviously if those latter movements came to power in all those Muslim countries that still essentially serve as colonies for foreign powers (in terms of selling us raw natural resources) they might seriously damage our economies and very likely would decimate many of our big corporations.

Also, just think what the world would be like if the Middle-East not only controlled the oil, but also an equivalent portion of the worlds gasoline. If you think they have too much money and power now...

If mercantilism still exists, it has pretty much reversed itself. The value is in the materials and the knowlege, but we outsource our manufacturing to the "colonies".

[Crumpy-Gunt]

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

I'm trying to understand the core of your message but it's really hard when in just about every post you are calling people that don't agree with you idiots.

Some friendly advice: people may listen to your argument if you make it less argumentative.

I genuinely think they are idiots. Claiming there are no moderates, there will be a clash of civilizations and one of the largest religions in the world needs to be somehow 'dealt' with. Its not that they dont agree with me because I really haven't expressed any thoughts on the thread title. Im mostly here to criticize and poke fun at people who I have a feeling are probably somewhere in between misinformed idiots and hateful bigots.

Thanks for the advice. I'm not here really to have some deep discussion about anything in the thread title but just to 'intentionally play a role' as one poster put it. I usually ridicule people who hold these kinds of beliefs because they aren't worth engaging in an actual discussion since they are not being honest or direct about what they truly believe deep down but it seeps out.

Come on lads? What should we do about Islam. How do you purpose we deal with it? Maybe we should bomb Saudi Arabia with a few Sam Harris/Maajid Nawaz books? I bet Nawaz would be beheaded in Saudi Arabia for his beliefs, yet the west is allied with that very nation and keeps quiet about everything they do. Maybe that would be a good start. Not turning a blind eye to what is the Mecca of Islam. The same place all of the 9/11 hijackers were from. The place that has been caught numerous times funding terrorists world wide.

None of these stooges want to do that because then they would have to acknowledge there is a difference between Islam and political Islam. A moderate and a fundamentalist. A Sunni and a Shia. Etc etc. These fools would rather zoom right in and talk about it as if everything revolves around the fact that these people read the Quran and that Islam is an inherently intolerant, violent and oppressive religion, just like Christianity has proven to be throughout the centuries.

But if Christians have learned to accept Black people as humans rather than just cursed descendants of Ham who are prophesied in the bible to be slaves and the Popes have washed their hands of the genocides they orchestrated based on their religion then why cant Islam and Muslims do the same thing and move on from a literal interpretation of their texts and mixing the state with religion? First off are the western nations truly 100% secular? Are leaders not elected on their religious suitability and thus their views on the middle east and the Christo-Judean bond between the west and Israel. The western foreign policy in the middle east certainly isnt secular. Not to mention the huge power of the christian and Jewish lobbies. We arent electing Mullahs but we have things like Harper crying when talking about Israel and the need to protect it - and Netanyahu giving an unprecedented and historic speech in the US Senate (!) We have to not only try to help other countries become more secular and liberal but we aren't exactly even-handed when it comes to our policies and interests so lets not pretend we haven't totally ####ed up the middle east. Lets not pretend that has nothing to do with the radicalization of the region and it continuing gravitation towards religious politics.

Could it be that some outside factors are at play in the middle east? How is it that Shia and Sunni people lived in the same homes and intermarried until the US invasion of that country and now they cant be within 100 meters of each-other without violence?

I think its stupid to engage some of the people in here in a serious discussion because they are just flat out stubborn, ignorant and wrong. A terrible combination. Worst of all they look at things in total isolation and love to nit-pick. They use terms like "oil/imperialist bogeyman" refer to the idea that western influence and pressure could be one cause of the rise in radicalization and in turn fundamentalist terrorism when everyone knows the middle east has been a playground for western politicians and troops for centuries. People comparing the middle east to Europe and wondering why it hasnt reached those levels are intellectually dishonest. The middle east should be compared with Africa and some parts of Asia where the borders, religions and rules have been imposed on them for hundreds of years by foreigners.

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Any slur against a jew is alright is it? But god forbid any other trigger...

How about we look at some statistics that are very relevant to this thread:

http://global100.adl.org/

Anti-semitism is a real thing, and not only is it a bad thing, the levels of hate are a pretty good indicator of how well a country is doing (ie government, education, etc) and how well they are going to do.

What are you even talking about? Honestly?!

[Itse]

Originally Posted by SebC

If mercantilism still exists, it has pretty much reversed itself. The value is in the materials and the knowlege, but we outsource our manufacturing to the "colonies".

In the context of Middle-East we're mostly talking about crude oil, which is mostly exported as is and refined elsewhere.

In Africa we're often talking about things such as rare earth minerals which are exported to Asia to make cellphones and such.

(China for example is btw part of "us" in this context, being from the POV of Muslim countries a foreign power that is looking for cheap raw materials for it's manufacturing industry.)

[Crumpy-Gunt]

Originally Posted by nik-

nm, I'm done wasting time with this obvious troll idiot.

I'm the idiot but it took you several pages and me coming out and typing that im just trolloling you fools for you to move on? There will be no rational discussion with bigots. I applaud Itse's efforts but you guys are stones.

The thing with CP and posters like you is that you think this is a popularity contest so everyone else must be here to make friends and get likes. I couldnt give a crap what you think tbh. Some of you kids take this forum too seriously. Threatening to stop posting, or ignore people or trying to take little jabs at people and think you are actually hurting their internet feelings. Just because you want to come across as cool smart and funny doesnt mean everyone who comes on here need some online gratification to feel good or gets upset when people call them a troll or an idiot.

I am a troll. Plus I've called you lot idiots a few dozen times so I'm happy you've accepted it. This was a productive thread. Pissed off the Corsi, the argument specialist and cry baby. Got a rise out of Waza the resident Likud party right wing Zionist Torah thumper. Now I've finally received a deeply hurtful insult from Nik, the cool funny dude (he called me troll idiot) .

Its funny how sensitive and whiny some people on here are.

[jayswin]

This is excellent, imo.

[nik-]

I just can't imagine typing like 10000 words just out of a desire to get a rise out of people. That's actually just kind of sad tbh.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by Trumpy-Gunt

Hahaha. This just made my day.

I just copied your style - amazing how ludicrous the argumentation sounds when it comes from someone else, isn't it?

[Crumpy-Gunt]

Originally Posted by nik-

I just can't imagine typing like 10000 words just out of a desire to get a rise out of people. That's actually just kind of sad tbh.

Almost as sad as your beliefs.

[Crumpy-Gunt]

Originally Posted by jammiesinabunch

I just copied your style - amazing how ludicrous the argumentation sounds when it comes from someone else, isn't it?

Actually theres a big difference. I called a few bigots out for being bigots and hinted that they are stereotyping a religion of 2 billion people so if they want to paint a whole religion with one brush then I will just call them black boot neo-nazis which they may well be or at least hold some similar beliefs to those people in regards to a clash of civilizations. I did upset a few people and some even stopped posting as they are used to people calling them racist bigots and refusing to listen to their beliefs - they deserve to be ridiculed and they cant handle it. The highlight of this thread was Corsi asking Itse if what I was doing (calling them dumb neo-nazis) was OK with him as if Itse and I are married by the fact we disagree with you.

The difference is you just called an agnostic Semite who criticized Zionism an anti-Semite. You also didnt upset me or surprise me as its an age old method of stifling discussion about Israel.

[nik-]

the hypocrisy is stellar

[Crumpy-Gunt]

Originally Posted by nik-

nm, I'm done wasting time with this obvious troll idiot.

What happened to that post ?

I thought you were done with me? Now you are preying over the thread to respond to me when nobody is talking to you tbh. Why dont you go shine your black boots mr fascist and prepare for the impending clash of civilizations. Surely you dont have time for a lowly 'sad' 'troll idiot' like me..

[jayswin]

trolling aside, his over the top point that we have different standards for what is acceptable when speaking of various ethnic/religious groups as westerners is definitely fascinating. We often don't see it that way because well....we're westerners, but it's very apparent when looked upon from 10000 feet.