Brexit- Update: Britain has voted to leave the EU

[UKflames]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

As a Brit the underlying theme of Britains relationship with the EU through my lifetime has been resentment that the empire is gone and we have to deal with the bloody continentals as equals.
Most Brits are (like other races) fairly deluded about their strengths, there's a general sense that the dynamism that created the empire will see them through, what you realize when you leave the UK is just how badly managed the country is and how utterly uncompetitive the UK is likely to be on the worlds stage. I find the muddled level of incompetence when I go back to the UK quaint and nostalgic for a week or two, the British, unfortunately, never really complain about much of anything, they grumble amongst themselves but don't actually do anything, I've sat in an airport for hours on end with other Brits with no baggage produced and no explanation and everyone waits quietly and patiently while the other races, Americans in particular, utterly lose their ####, it's impressive and charming but it doesn't do much to up the countries 'game' unfortunately.

It was this theory that everyone is equal and what works for one will work for everyone else that caused the majority of the resentment towards the EU. Having rules pushed onto the population by a committee that was unelected by the people, seeing the huge amounts of cash that were wasted (moving the EU parliament every two weeks being a prime example), there were a lot of reasons people turned against the EU.

Whilst there seems to be quite a few that consider those of us that voted out as "ignorant grubby morons" or part of "clownshoe vote", if you actually look at the final figures the margin of victory within England was actually far higher than the final result, so maybe the reasons for voting out were greater than a lot of people care to acknowledge and it wasn't just the lower classes that voted out after all.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Being skilled labour doesn't mean one is knowledgeable in all things.

A brain surgeon can be grossly ignorant of the financial repercussions of Brexit, for instance.

Sent from my ASUS_Z00TD using Tapatalk

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by UKflames

Whilst there seems to be quite a few that consider those of us that voted out as "ignorant grubby morons" or part of "clownshoe vote", if you actually look at the final figures the margin of victory within England was actually far higher than the final result, so maybe the reasons for voting out were greater than a lot of people care to acknowledge and it wasn't just the lower classes that voted out after all.

Maybe England has a greater proportion of clownshoes than Scotland?

[devo22]

Gove is out. Either going to be May or Leadsom ...

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...-politics-live

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by UKflames

It was this theory that everyone is equal and what works for one will work for everyone else that caused the majority of the resentment towards the EU. Having rules pushed onto the population by a committee that was unelected by the people, seeing the huge amounts of cash that were wasted (moving the EU parliament every two weeks being a prime example), there were a lot of reasons people turned against the EU.

Whilst there seems to be quite a few that consider those of us that voted out as "ignorant grubby morons" or part of "clownshoe vote", if you actually look at the final figures the margin of victory within England was actually far higher than the final result, so maybe the reasons for voting out were greater than a lot of people care to acknowledge and it wasn't just the lower classes that voted out after all.

There are many times we, as individuals and countries, do things that are a waste of time or money because the over all good out weighs the individual action, the UK has done massively well out of the EU, I am old enough to remember the sixties and early seventies when the economy was damn near at a third world level with the IMF stepping in to rescue the UK like Brazil or some other failed state, huge companies closing down regularly, whole industries and regions failing. The EU gave Briton an economic role, it is no longer a manufacturing economy it is a service economy, specifically it services the EU, my friends work in IT for companies that work through out the EU, the city acts as the EU's banker, all of that is at risk and at least 20% of the UK economy is going to contract in my opinion.

The cost of leaving the EU massively out weighs the cost of being in the EU, and most of the problems that people complain about, immigration, house prices, unemployment in the old industrial centres of the North will continue in or out.
As such there's no way of viewing the vote as anything other than a massively stupid ill considered emotional decision that will either do massive damage to the economy or will do nothing to change anything but will take away the UK's influence in Europe while still leaving it having to swallow all the same gripes.

As to whether it was just a working class vote that caused this, obviously not, stupidity isn't restricted to the working classes.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

There are many times we, as individuals and countries, do things that are a waste of time or money because the over all good out weighs the individual action, the UK has done massively well out of the EU, I am old enough to remember the sixties and early seventies when the economy was damn near at a third world level with the IMF stepping in to rescue the UK like Brazil or some other failed state, huge companies closing down regularly, whole industries and regions failing. The EU gave Briton an economic role, it is no longer a manufacturing economy it is a service economy, specifically it services the EU, my friends work in IT for companies that work through out the EU, the city acts as the EU's banker, all of that is at risk and at least 20% of the UK economy is going to contract in my opinion.

The cost of leaving the EU massively out weighs the cost of being in the EU, and most of the problems that people complain about, immigration, house prices, unemployment in the old industrial centres of the North will continue in or out.
As such there's no way of viewing the vote as anything other than a massively stupid ill considered emotional decision that will either do massive damage to the economy or will do nothing to change anything but will take away the UK's influence in Europe while still leaving it having to swallow all the same gripes.

As to whether it was just a working class vote that caused this, obviously not, stupidity isn't restricted to the working classes.

This post really illustrates part of the problem. You acknowledge that the working class is being absolutely gutted by globalization, but then condemn them for Brexit as it will essentially bring the upper class to their level.

There was no action taken to help the working classes adjust to a modern society within the UK, and Brexit is the natural outcome. Perhaps this all falls at the feet of those in the "service sector" who let greed and lack of compassion for others ruin the UK economy in the first place. Of course they voted against Brexit. Not because they were more education, but because staying in the EU maintained the status quo.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by blankall

Of course they voted against Brexit. Not because they were more education, but because staying in the EU maintained the status quo.

Yep. It was a referendum on the status quo. A lot of people think the status quo sucks. And there will be more referendums on the status quo in other countries. Those who are doing well with the status quo need to find a way to get the losers onboard, or the the losers will keep throwing spanners in the works.

[Flamenspiel]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

There are many times we, as individuals and countries, do things that are a waste of time or money because the over all good out weighs the individual action, the UK has done massively well out of the EU, I am old enough to remember the sixties and early seventies when the economy was damn near at a third world level with the IMF stepping in to rescue the UK like Brazil or some other failed state, huge companies closing down regularly, whole industries and regions failing. The EU gave Briton an economic role, it is no longer a manufacturing economy it is a service economy, specifically it services the EU, my friends work in IT for companies that work through out the EU, the city acts as the EU's banker, all of that is at risk and at least 20% of the UK economy is going to contract in my opinion.

The cost of leaving the EU massively out weighs the cost of being in the EU, and most of the problems that people complain about, immigration, house prices, unemployment in the old industrial centres of the North will continue in or out.
As such there's no way of viewing the vote as anything other than a massively stupid ill considered emotional decision that will either do massive damage to the economy or will do nothing to change anything but will take away the UK's influence in Europe while still leaving it having to swallow all the same gripes.

As to whether it was just a working class vote that caused this, obviously not, stupidity isn't restricted to the working classes.

Good points AFC, but I am not sure you are aware that a lot of the IT jobs in the UK and other Western European countries were moved to Hungary, Poland and Romania who make less then half a UK workers wage. Because of strict EU data regulations, these jobs are very difficult to move to India under any circumstances, so it is fundamentally an EU issue.

They are for the most part high end positions(lead software developers, network engineers, etc..) being held by multiple degree holders, not just Help Desks. That is just one example but the same thing is happening with all kinds of labor such as construction, arts(film production), and anything else that can be moved or can be performed by a low wage eastern European worker(they do not match the wage) in the UK.

Exiting the EU may not help, but there is certainly a perception among UK workers that leaving would be moving in the right direction.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by blankall

This post really illustrates part of the problem. You acknowledge that the working class is being absolutely gutted by globalization, but then condemn them for Brexit as it will essentially bring the upper class to their level.

There was no action taken to help the working classes adjust to a modern society within the UK, and Brexit is the natural outcome. Perhaps this all falls at the feet of those in the "service sector" who let greed and lack of compassion for others ruin the UK economy in the first place. Of course they voted against Brexit. Not because they were more education, but because staying in the EU maintained the status quo.

There is absolutely nothing that leaving the EU does to alter the effects of globalization on the UK, if anything it makes them worse, which is why I think the vote was hugely stupid, leaving the EU does absolutely nothing to alter the situation, it just makes the UK poorer.

The status quo that voters are mad at is worldwide, it has nothing to do with Europe and what chance any country has of resisting the effects comes with being part of larger more influential economic groupings.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

Good points AFC, but I am not sure you are aware that a lot of the IT jobs in the UK and other Western European countries were moved to Hungary, Poland and Romania who make less then half a UK workers wage. Because of strict EU data regulations, these jobs are very difficult to move to India under any circumstances, so it is fundamentally an EU issue.

They are for the most part high end positions(lead software developers, network engineers, etc..) being held by multiple degree holders, not just Help Desks. That is just one example but the same thing is happening with all kinds of labor such as construction, arts(film production), and anything else that can be moved or can be performed by a low wage eastern European worker(they do not match the wage) in the UK.

Exiting the EU may not help, but there is certainly a perception among UK workers that leaving would be moving in the right direction.

Exiting the EU won't help because the work is a consequence of being in the EU.
Most of my friends in IT service the financial sector that will be devastated by leaving, it makes no difference if you have laws on the books protecting jobs if the companies that create the jobs have closed or moved.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

There is absolutely nothing that leaving the EU does to alter the effects of globalization on the UK, if anything it makes them worse, which is why I think the vote was hugely stupid, leaving the EU does absolutely nothing to alter the situation, it just makes the UK poorer.

The status quo that voters are mad at is worldwide, it has nothing to do with Europe and what chance any country has of resisting the effects comes with being part of larger more influential economic groupings.

Oh cmon, nothing? It makes it much harder for foreign labour and investment to enter the UK market. In May of 2016, there were an estimated 2.2 million foreign workers from the EU working in the UK:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...to-record-22m/

Whether or not that will make the UK poorer has yet to be seen, but to say that leaving the EU will have no effect is ingenuous. The Brexit is most certainly a step away from globalization and towards isolation. Like I said before, the main issue is that the majority of British people were not benefiting from membership in the UK. There was no trickle down effect. Only an inflationary one where salaries were falling and the cost of living was rising.

Once again, perhaps you're right that this won't help anyone and will only harm those benefiting from EU membership. Things have gotten so bad that the lower classes don't care, and just want some kind of change.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Exiting the EU won't help because the work is a consequence of being in the EU.
Most of my friends in IT service the financial sector that will be devastated by leaving, it makes no difference if you have laws on the books protecting jobs if the companies that create the jobs have closed or moved.

Your argument relies on the premise that the financial sectors are generating jobs for the rest of Britain. Are they? It seems as though the UK is exporting much of that work or bringing in cheap labour to do it. The example of an IT guy who works at a major financial institution is a good one, but how many people actually fulfill roles like that? Once again, being a high end IT guy is the type of role that is simply unattainable for most people.

In Canada, where we don't have the same class divide, it's difficult to relate to how things actually are in Britain. In Canada most people would have access to both the education and technology required to become an IT guy. In the UK the same simply isn't true. Although in Canada, the insane costs of housing and capital are definitely widening the gap between the rich and the poor.

[afc wimbledon]

Most of my friends did their IT at collage which was free at the time, university and collage was considerably less expensive in the UK.

And leaving the EU is not a step away from globalization, it is a step to increasing globalization, the UK now has to sign deals with the U.S. and China, fully intends to and as a smaller market, will have less say as to what those deals say.

[afc wimbledon]

The financial sector is a massive employer in the UK, whether they employes are 'british' or not is irrelevant as their are as many British nationals working in Europe as their are non British nationals working in the UK, they all pay taxes in their respective countries.

No one in Alberta gets mad because Newfies work in the Oil patch, it's the same thing

[blankall]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Most of my friends did their IT at collage which was free at the time, university and collage was considerably less expensive in the UK.

And leaving the EU is not a step away from globalization, it is a step to increasing globalization, the UK now has to sign deals with the U.S. and China, fully intends to and as a smaller market, will have less say as to what those deals say.

The UK hasn't fallen so far that they have no negotiating power with China or the USA. They still have the fifth largest economy in the world. Your argument also relies on the fact that the EU was acting in the interest of the UK and not just the EU as a whole and that those two interests are one and the same.

I think you also fail to recognize the class divide in the UK. If you did a poll, you'd find very few people from lower class backgrounds working in high paying IT jobs in the financial sector, free education or not.

I'd also like to see figure of UK citizens working abroad in other parts of the EU and how much they are making. And once again, my guess it that many of those working abroad in the EU are not from the working classes. I doubt UK citizens are out competing Polish labourers in Poland for pay rates. If they are forced to do that, there's something fundamentally wrong.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by blankall

The UK hasn't fallen so far that they have no negotiating power with China or the USA. They still have the fifth largest economy in the world. Your argument also relies on the fact that the EU was acting in the interest of the UK and not just the EU as a whole and that those two interests are one and the same.

I think you also fail to recognize the class divide in the UK. If you did a poll, you'd find very few people from lower class backgrounds working in high paying IT jobs in the financial sector, free education or not.

I'd also like to see figure of UK citizens working abroad in other parts of the EU and how much they are making. And once again, my guess it that many of those working abroad in the EU are not from the working classes. I doubt UK citizens are out competing Polish labourers in Poland for pay rates. If they are forced to do that, there's something fundamentally wrong.

No longer the 5th, the immediate effect of the vote was to drop us to sixth.

[afc wimbledon]

It's IT for Christ sake, it's chock a block full of lower middle class kids with a couple of A levels and a two year diploma, it's the very definition of an ordinary job.
I went to a working to lower middle class school in Fulham, which used to be a cheap area fourth years ago, I'm astounded at how many of my old mates are doing network support.

[afc wimbledon]

Fully half of the UK economy is wrapped up in finance, it is the least protected against the Brexit, the most easily transportable, an industry that was largely reliant on being the brocker financially between the EU and the rest of the world, an utterly impossible role outside the EU.

[Hack&Lube]

So it's going to be Hillary Clinton, Theresa May, and Angela Merkel at the top of the free world. Justin should step aside for a woman!

[T@T]

Originally Posted by devo22

Gove is out. Either going to be May or Leadsom ...

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...-politics-live

Leadsom drops out, Theresa May is last women standing.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...-politics-live