Even you equating labour with labourer shows your bias. Skilled labour is quite a bit different.
Christ dude, stop putting words in my mouth. I'm well aware of the differences between a welder and a ditch-digger. My dad was a contractor and I spent most of my summers growing up as a general labourer on his job sites and around skilled tradesmen.
Christ dude, stop putting words in my mouth. I'm well aware of the differences between a welder and a ditch-digger. My dad was a contractor and I spent most of my summers growing up as a general labourer on his job sites and around skilled tradesmen.
There are a number of possibilities. Disenchantment and distrust of the political elite/establishment, hatred/bigotry/ignorance, nationalism/nativism, legitimate political and economic concerns.
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Well most of the political and economic experts thought remain was the best choice, so I don't think it's a stretch to say that leave was the sentimental or emotional choice.
Well most of the political and economic experts thought remain was the best choice, so I don't think it's a stretch to say that leave was the sentimental or emotional choice.
This is an appeal to authority, and doesn't shake up with me. Experts are wrong about a great many things, particularly when it comes to issues directly threaten the set of ideas which serve to benefit their class interests.
Come on, dude.
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Yeah, we are drawing pretty big strokes here. So Remain was more knowledgeable in relation to what exactly?
Clearly, Leave voters had an incentive beyond being ignorant, dirt-grubbing dummies.
When you live in a post factual political environment propaganda is far more effective.
We know propaganda works, we have it down to a pretty good science. Hell, I know that an orange button on a website is 69% more likely to lead to a sales conversion than the same button in green.
I do t think any of the claims from the Lea e side of things have been shown to be accurate yet they beat out the remain side which had experts making expert opinions that have been fairly accurate on what would happen if the leave vote won.
Unfortunately when my opinion carries the same weight as your facts, we will be in a stalemate.
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I wasn't paying close enough attention to figure out for sure if the objectively right call was "remain", from the standpoint of the economy. Anecdotally, I think 100% of the British people I know whose ability to make objective, rational political decisions I trust voted remain. But that's still an obvious oversimplification, regardless. There were certainly people who voted remain for sentimental and emotional reasons, too. There were also undoubtedly a huge number of people who voted leave in large part for philosophical reasons relating to sovereignty - in fact it was determined to have been a bigger driver of the "leave" vote than immigration policy. Obviously, some of the people who voted "leave" primarily for immigration reasons did so rationally as well.
Both options were the emotional and rational choices to different people.
__________________ "The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
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When you live in a post factual political environment propaganda is far more effective.
We know propaganda works, we have it down to a pretty good science. Hell, I know that an orange button on a website is 69% more likely to lead to a sales conversion than the same button in green.
I do t think any of the claims from the Lea e side of things have been shown to be accurate yet they beat out the remain side which had experts making expert opinions that have been fairly accurate on what would happen if the leave vote won.
Unfortunately when my opinion carries the same weight as your facts, we will be in a stalemate.
Yeah, the general fragmentation of opinion from a common standard has caused real harm. The problem is that most elite experts suffer from precisely the same problem.
Intellectuals are supposed to try to see the whole, rather than the parts.
There were some very top minds who endorsed Leave - Roger Scruton and Pierre Manent to name two.
This is an appeal to authority, and doesn't shake up with me. Experts are wrong about a great many things, particularly when it comes to issues directly threaten the set of ideas which serve to benefit their class interests.
Come on, dude.
Calls-out an appeal to authority, responds with question-begging.
Vox has a good short video on why Britain leaving the EU could be better for the EU, but also why other EU countries want to make it messier than it needs to be. It really doesn't need to be the big deal it's being made out to be, but it's more about the EU having to assert its power and make other countries afraid to leave.
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"A pessimist thinks things can't get any worse. An optimist knows they can."
Um, there were more people voting on the Leave side than on the Remain side? Pretty basic arithmetic, Rex.
See this is an oversimplication of what Rex was getting at. Everyone knows the winner gets more votes than the loser.
But why did the remain side not prevail? Why was the remain side unable to persuade more from the leave side to change their vote?
Again, I think the argument is oversimplified if one merely talks about the intelligence of the voters. I think it comes down to communication skills and how one approaches the other side when one is presenting their side of the argument.
Location: In a land without pants, or war, or want. But mostly we care about the pants.
Exp:
It might be an oversimplification to say all Leave voters are ignorant grubby morons, but it'd be fair to say that the clownshoes vote was solidly Leave, thereby providing the margin of victory and more. You can be thoughtful and rational about your politics and share those views with mumbling twits and yokels - there is no guarantee that an uninformed and baseless opinion can't, by happy accident, provoke the same voting behaviour in a plebiscite as an informed and logical stance, especially if it's regarding a very straightforward question of "Yes" or "No", or, in this case, "Stay" or "Leave".
As far as claims of "experts" being so often wrong, and thus distrusted by the masses, I think that's more a function of expertise being mistaken for absolute accuracy in areas where such is simply not possible. People want simple answers to simple questions, even when the "simple" questions are just caricatures of the complex issues underneath, and the simple answers are subsequently meaningless, and serve only as grudge points to save up against the poindexters when they don't pan out.
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Yeah, the general fragmentation of opinion from a common standard has caused real harm. The problem is that most elite experts suffer from precisely the same problem.
Intellectuals are supposed to try to see the whole, rather than the parts.
There were some very top minds who endorsed Leave - Roger Scruton and Pierre Manent to name two.
Not that it isn't important, but I would guess that those two are more opposed to the EU for ideological or philosophical grounds than on social, economic, or political grounds. Mind you I can't find the articles in question that you're referring to.
It might be an oversimplification to say all Leave voters are ignorant grubby morons, but it'd be fair to say that the clownshoes vote was solidly Leave, thereby providing the margin of victory and more. You can be thoughtful and rational about your politics and share those views with mumbling twits and yokels - there is no guarantee that an uninformed and baseless opinion can't, by happy accident, provoke the same voting behaviour in a plebiscite as an informed and logical stance, especially if it's regarding a very straightforward question of "Yes" or "No", or, in this case, "Stay" or "Leave".
As far as claims of "experts" being so often wrong, and thus distrusted by the masses, I think that's more a function of expertise being mistaken for absolute accuracy in areas where such is simply not possible. People want simple answers to simple questions, even when the "simple" questions are just caricatures of the complex issues underneath, and the simple answers are subsequently meaningless, and serve only as grudge points to save up against the poindexters when they don't pan out.
But then you also have a lot of "remain" supporters that couldn't care less about working class or poor people problems and only see the EU as the best way to keep themselves wealthy and give more power to corporate interests and indentured labour. Maybe they are not crazies or "clown shoes", but it's fair to say that both sides have their fair share of supporters with questionable ulterior motives. Then you also have the ones that tried to sell a "leave" vote as telling the terrorists they won, like some George Bush throwbacks.
The simple fact is that a large number of people regardless of political stance are dumb, selfish and ignorant. You just have to hope that they negate each other somehow.
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"A pessimist thinks things can't get any worse. An optimist knows they can."
As a Brit the underlying theme of Britains relationship with the EU through my lifetime has been resentment that the empire is gone and we have to deal with the bloody continentals as equals.
Most Brits are (like other races) fairly deluded about their strengths, there's a general sense that the dynamism that created the empire will see them through, what you realize when you leave the UK is just how badly managed the country is and how utterly uncompetitive the UK is likely to be on the worlds stage. I find the muddled level of incompetence when I go back to the UK quaint and nostalgic for a week or two, the British, unfortunately, never really complain about much of anything, they grumble amongst themselves but don't actually do anything, I've sat in an airport for hours on end with other Brits with no baggage produced and no explanation and everyone waits quietly and patiently while the other races, Americans in particular, utterly lose their ####, it's impressive and charming but it doesn't do much to up the countries 'game' unfortunately.
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^^^ That's all well and good. But the EU itself is hardly renowned for dynamic efficiency. I doubt Brits traveling to France or Greece marvel at how competitive and efficient the services are.
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If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
