What happens when we die?

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by MattyC

It's not black and white, because our evidence (or lack thereof) doesn't explain away everything.

Sure we have no empirical evidence of afterlife, but that doesn't mean it can't exist insofar that we just haven't discovered it yet (or can't). Or it's very likely that there's nothing at all. But lack of evidence doesn't make it an impossibility. We need to have evidence of it being an impossibility before we can make that claim.

Who said it was impossible? I said there was no evidence. Believing in something completely made up without evidence is stupid, IMO. If there was evidence, I'd believe because it would be stupid not to.

Originally Posted by MattyC

What would you consider supernatural? Anyone from 150 years ago would say that instant communication is "supernatural". To put things into a category of supernatural and just call them black and white impossible due to lack of evidence, to me, is just as arrogant as someone trying to convince me that the Earth was created in 7 days and all the universe revolves around us. The only difference is that the former has been DISPROVED. Whereas, the idea of afterlife hasn't been. Plenty of solid arguments against it, not much in the way of arguments for it, but not disproved.

Russell's Teapot:

...the philosophic burden of proof lies upon a person making scientifically unfalsifiable claims, rather than shifting the burden of disproof to others.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Who said it was impossible? I said there was no evidence. Believing in something completely made up without evidence is stupid, IMO. If there was evidence, I'd believe because it would be stupid not to.

Not saying you have to believe anything either way. What I'm saying is that, without proof of anything either way, all interpretations are open to being explored. I would agree that believing in anything that is demonstrated to be false is stupid. But to have an idea about what you might think an afterlife may look like, and even to guide yourself accordingly, isn't necessarily stupid. So long as you are willing to abandon any beliefs should they be shown to be untrue.

If you agree that some form of afterlife hasn't been shown to be impossible, you kind of have to let others have their thoughts on it free of judgement. Just like any theories of physics that may seem outlandish. The difference there is that scientists are actively searching for proof, as your quote suggests they should be. And religious zealots see no reason to search for proof.

Personally, i see no reason to search for proof because my beliefs in any afterlife are not concrete enough to warrant any work going into finding the truth. AKA I don't care enough to really seek the truth, but that doesn't mean I can't hold some ideas about what the truth may be.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Not saying you have to believe anything either way. What I'm saying is that, without proof of anything either way, all interpretations are open to being explored. I would agree that believing in anything that is demonstrated to be false is stupid. But to have an idea about what you might think an afterlife may look like, and even to guide yourself accordingly, isn't necessarily stupid. So long as you are willing to abandon any beliefs should they be shown to be untrue.

I refer you back to Russell's Teapot.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I refer you back to Russell's Teapot.

Again, I'm not really sure why it matters unless you are a person who believes in something, actively pressures others to believe in the same thing and/or acts for/against anything based on those beliefs, and tells others to "prove them wrong" first.

I'm not saying that the above is OK. What I'm saying is that keeping an open mind about pretty much any idea of afterlife that hasn't been disproved is not necessarily stupid.

I'll use myself as an example. I don't have any concrete beliefs about afterlife, but through my own thought experiments, have determined that they idea of consciousness transcending dimensions is not necessarily out of the realm of possibility. That is something that could be included under the title of "afterlife". And so I don't CLOSE my mind to that idea. But then someone earlier mentioned the idea of time perception becoming slower and slower as you drift into death to the point that it could seem infinite to the person passing away. That seems really interesting to me and not out of the realm of possibility, so I'll probably include it in my own personal ideas about afterlife from now on.

To me, you seem to have closed your mind to any ideas of afterlife because it hasn't been proven. To me, that's just as close-minded as the reverse.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by MattyC

To me, you seem to have closed your mind to any ideas of afterlife because it hasn't been proven. To me, that's just as close-minded as the reverse.

But this is absurd. You could say this about any proposition for which no evidence is available or forthcoming. Sliver's reference to Russell's Teapot is bang on. That's just one odd, silly example of something that there's no good reason to believe is true or false, so we default to false. The Flying Spaghetti Monster is another.

You could pull out of your ass any belief system you liked, and suggest that it can't be proven or disproven, so closing your mind to the possibility it's true is equally closed-minded as being certain that it is. That is nonsense.

[Sliver]

We can agree to disagree. I feel bad that you're putting so much effort into your replies and I'm one-lining you. I appreciate your willingness to engage, but I really don't have much to contribute other than '*grunt* religion is dumb,' which isn't helpful or interesting to read so I'm going to back out of this thread a bit.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

But this is absurd. You could say this about any proposition for which no evidence is available or forthcoming. Sliver's reference to Russell's Teapot is bang on. That's just one odd, silly example of something that there's no good reason to believe is true or false, so we default to false. The Flying Spaghetti Monster is another.

You could pull out of your ass any belief system you liked, and suggest that it can't be proven or disproven, so closing your mind to the possibility it's true is equally closed-minded as being certain that it is. That is nonsense.

How is it any more nonsense to have an idea about something so incomprehensible pretty much any idea of it seems impossible, than it it is to be certain (IE 100% the truth) that this thing actually is impossible?

Doesn't any conversation surrounding the afterlife, whether on the side of it or not, have to include at least a shred of doubt on either side?

Originally Posted by Sliver

We can agree to disagree. I feel bad that you're putting so much effort into your replies and I'm one-lining you. I appreciate your willingness to engage, but I really don't have much to contribute other than '*grunt* religion is dumb,' which isn't helpful or interesting to read so I'm going to back out of this thread a bit.

I think religion is dumb too. But, to me at least, ideas about afterlife don't necessarily have to coincide with any sort of religious leanings.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by MattyC

I think religion is dumb too. But, to me at least, ideas about afterlife don't necessarily have to coincide with any sort of religious leanings.

I get that. There was a poster a page or two ago who just made up a bunch of nonsense and called it his thoughts on the afterlife.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I get that. There was a poster a page or two ago who just made up a bunch of nonsense and called it his thoughts on the afterlife.

Yeah. So? That's been my whole point. All thoughts on afterlife can pretty much be put in the category of "nonsense", so what difference does it make if someone wants to come up with their own? Whether you try to find some root in science for it, or you believe you become a meatball on the spaghetti monster's heavenly plate, it makes no difference. Except for how other people will react to your thoughts I guess.

[Sliver]

I was just replying to you. Nobody thinks ideas about the afterlife have to coincide with organized religious views. Anybody can make up anything about the afterlife. We seem to agree. Theories about an afterlife are nonsense.

[peter12]

I'm not sure if my comments really derailed this thread or whatever, but I feel that the atheists in this thread just like getting their jollies by dumping all over the kind of pop-woo descriptions of personal belief, which is weird, because they are only expressed to exemplify the personal mystery that these individuals feel when contemplating their place in the universe.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by peter12

I'm not sure if my comments really derailed this thread or whatever, but I feel that the atheists in this thread just like getting their jollies by dumping all over the kind of pop-woo descriptions of personal belief, which is weird, because they are only expressed to exemplify the personal mystery that these individuals feel when contemplating their place in the universe.

Jollies? It's exasperating.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Jollies? It's exasperating.

Honestly, why?

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I was just replying to you. Nobody thinks ideas about the afterlife have to coincide with organized religious views. Anybody can make up anything about the afterlife. We seem to agree. Theories about an afterlife are nonsense.

Yeah but you went after that poster pretty hard about how it's nonsense that they just made something up. It made it seem like it would somehow be less nonsensical if they had chosen a faith and fell under that doctrine's belief on afterlife.

Originally Posted by peter12

I'm not sure if my comments really derailed this thread or whatever, but I feel that the atheists in this thread just like getting their jollies by dumping all over the kind of pop-woo descriptions of personal belief, which is weird, because they are only expressed to exemplify the personal mystery that these individuals feel when contemplating their place in the universe.

Why paint all atheists with the same brush. I doubt you want to be painted with the same brush as all Christians.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Yeah but you went after that poster pretty hard about how it's nonsense that they just made something up. It made it seem like it would somehow be less nonsensical if they had chosen a faith and fell under that doctrine's belief on afterlife.

It would be more understandable if they had been indoctrinated into a belief since birth. To randomly make up mumbo jumbo as an adult and then to believe your own made up story befuddled me. I had never heard of a grown up doing that before.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by mattyc

yeah but you went after that poster pretty hard about how it's nonsense that they just made something up. It made it seem like it would somehow be less nonsensical if they had chosen a faith and fell under that doctrine's belief on afterlife.



Why paint all atheists with the same brush. I doubt you want to be painted with the same brush as all christians.

some of the atheists in this thread.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Sliver

It would be more understandable if they had been indoctrinated into a belief since birth. To randomly make up mumbo jumbo as an adult and then to believe your own made up story befuddled me. I had never heard of a grown up doing that before.

Maybe it's the idea of "belief" that we're getting crossed. I don't want to speak for the poster, but for me, I have come up with my own ideas (which I'm sure are shared and not necessarily original) about an afterlife. That doesn't mean that I necessarily believe them in the same way a devout Christian would believe in heaven. Believe in the possibility of it maybe? But I would highly doubt the poster's belief is dogmatic in anyway.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Maybe it's the idea of "belief" that we're getting crossed. I don't want to speak for the poster, but for me, I have come up with my own ideas (which I'm sure are shared and not necessarily original) about an afterlife. That doesn't mean that I necessarily believe them in the same way a devout Christian would believe in heaven. Believe in the possibility of it maybe? But I would highly doubt the poster's belief is dogmatic in anyway.

I guess I don't see the point of making up an alternate reality and then saying to myself, could be true.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I guess I don't see the point of making up an alternate reality and then saying to myself, could be true.

For me personally, there isn't a point other than it's just something interesting to ponder/discuss. And to have someone just come in and say "this is all stupid!" isn't really constructive to the discussion, no matter how far-fetched the ideas we're discussing.

I guess my point would be that we are all aware (or most anyways) of the incredibly minute possibility that any of these ideas are the truth. That doesn't mean discussing them and where they came from (whether thousands of years of scripture, or from an acid trip last weekend) isn't intriguing.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by MattyC

For me personally, there isn't a point other than it's just something interesting to ponder.

Ponder away. Believing it is where you lose me.