About 50 people killed at gay nightclub in Florida

[peter12]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

It's hard to be reminded that people are still game to kill you for simply being you.

Apologies if it's made me extra emotional, nothing personal, I just think you're picking the wrong place to come in and say "I wonder if people are going to apologise for what they said about religion, they probably won't!"

Yeah, I understand that. I really do understand that. So maybe you'll understand why I get my back up over really crude anti-Christian bigotry?

I really admire the gay community. I think they are tremendously resilient. Remember they survived, and thrived through the AIDS plague, and all of the bigotry, torture, and indifference that made that disaster far more prolonged than it should have been. Compared to that, Orlando is nothing.

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Your very left wing quote also implies that he is running from something he can't be in touch with.

What would be the driving force behind that feeling?

That's exactly the question that needs to be answered.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Your very left wing quote also implies that he is running from something he can't be in touch with.

What would be the driving force behind that feeling?

It depends on many factors which are not addressed by crude scapegoating.

Was it something caused by being an ordinary practicing Muslim or something that occurred during his well-documented radicalization? I hope most people can distinguish between ordinary laity and ideologically-radicalized fanatics.

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by peter12

It depends on many factors which are not addressed by crude scapegoating.

Was it something caused by being an ordinary practicing Muslim or something that occurred during his well-documented radicalization? I hope most people can distinguish between ordinary laity and ideologically-radicalized fanatics.

Yeah either way it's religion. Do you have an option that isn't religion?

[peter12]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

Yeah either way it's religion. Do you have an option that isn't religion?

No, you win. It's religion.

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by peter12

No, you win. It's religion.

Well if this is a case of a closet homosexual freaking out, what causes some gay people to feel marginalized and closeted? That's what I'm asking? Is it mental illness? Bad water? What?

I just get the feeling you're one of those religious people who just really loves the homosexuals but doesn't agree with their lifestyle. That's better than the standard chuck em off a roof ISIS mentality. But still really bad.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by peter12

No, you win. It's religion.

It kind of just is, yeah. Is there any other influence that specifically preaches exclusion of (and possibly violence against) homosexuals?

It seems that in most cases of mental illness, any violent outbursts are pretty indiscriminate (ie, don't target a specific group of people). Although one might consider believing in a deity, and the acting on the "word" of such deity, to be some form of mental illness.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

Well if this is a case of a closet homosexual freaking out, what causes some gay people to feel marginalized and closeted? That's what I'm asking? Is it mental illness? Bad water? What?

So you've changed. He is now a marginalized gay man tortured by a religious upbringing into perpetuating an incredibly cruel act against the very people who had openly accepted him into their arms?

Or is he a bigoted religious monster who saw two men kiss, and decided to act out his revenge?

Or is he a normal church goer with access to military-grade assault weapons who just woke up one morning, and decided to make a statement?

Or is he bi-polar? Did the religious imagery he had been exposed to become the twisted backdrop for his crime?

Or is he a simple jihadist - radicalized on the Internet - and motivated into making this massacre a political symbol for ISIS?

All of this is hypothetical. All of it is made-up. But everyone wants to stick to the ridiculously simple notion that 100 gay people were shot up in the worst mass shooting in US history because ... religious people hate gay people. How brutally simplistic is that. How terribly bigoted, and dumb. It does absolutely nothing but to divide, and destroy.

[ResAlien]

Jesus Christ, can someone come save the poor persecuted Christian before he makes this entire goddam thread about him?

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by peter12

How terribly bigoted, and dumb. It does absolutely nothing but to divide, and destroy.

You just described religious types and their attitude toward things like GSAs in Alberta and the transexuals and bathrooms nonsense in the US.

Religious types are actively fostering an atmosphere if hatred and distrust. Don't act surprised that people are connecting the very prominent dots.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by peter12

So you've changed. He is now a marginalized gay man tortured by a religious upbringing into perpetuating an incredibly cruel act against the very people who had openly accepted him into their arms?

Or is he a bigoted religious monster who saw two men kiss, and decided to act out his revenge?

Or is he a normal church goer with access to military-grade assault weapons who just woke up one morning, and decided to make a statement?

Or is he bi-polar? Did the religious imagery he had been exposed to become the twisted backdrop for his crime?

Or is he a simple jihadist - radicalized on the Internet - and motivated into making this massacre a political symbol for ISIS?

All of this is hypothetical. All of it is made-up. But everyone wants to stick to the ridiculously simple notion that 100 gay people were shot up in the worst mass shooting in US history because ... religious people hate gay people. How brutally simplistic is that. How terribly bigoted, and dumb. It does absolutely nothing but to divide, and destroy.

All of your scenarios include the existence of a religious background pushing him in the direction of hate.

And no, no one has said all religious people hate gay people (at least not from what I've seen). But, specifically Islam and Christianity, have shown to perpetuate the idea that they are not welcome within their spiritual community. And both very much need reform in this regard (Christianity is further along in this regard IMO, but many of the followers still believe in such nonsense).

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by peter12

So you've changed. He is now a marginalized gay man tortured by a religious upbringing into perpetuating an incredibly cruel act against the very people who had openly accepted him into their arms?

Or is he a bigoted religious monster who saw two men kiss, and decided to act out his revenge?

Or is he a normal church goer with access to military-grade assault weapons who just woke up one morning, and decided to make a statement?

Or is he bi-polar? Did the religious imagery he had been exposed to become the twisted backdrop for his crime?

Or is he a simple jihadist - radicalized on the Internet - and motivated into making this massacre a political symbol for ISIS?

All of this is hypothetical. All of it is made-up. But everyone wants to stick to the ridiculously simple notion that 100 gay people were shot up in the worst mass shooting in US history because ... religious people hate gay people. How brutally simplistic is that. How terribly bigoted, and dumb. It does absolutely nothing but serves to divide, and destroy.

Ok. So never mind the whole ISIS thing...nevermind the father who hates gay people. Nevermind the normal ingrained societal notion that god hates gay people...what else is there?

[calumniate]

Originally Posted by peter12

I really admire the gay community. I think they are tremendously resilient. Remember they survived, and thrived through the AIDS plague, and all of the bigotry, torture, and indifference that made that disaster far more prolonged than it should have been. Compared to that, Orlando is nothing.

You're starting to come off like Trump up there on your soap box. 'I love Mexicans, I have friends who are Mexican, heck half my workforce is Mexican. But let's build a wall anyway'

[Coys1882]

It's a shame - horrible waste of life.

Nothing can prevent or cure these things i'm certain of it. Religion, mental illness, lack of gun control, poverty, bigotry, self loathing - the reason doesn't matter, there's too many variables, too many moving parts.

It's a part of being human - it can't be fixed.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I don't really want to derail the thread Cliff, but it seems to be already there. But I would argue that the ability to kill and kill easily is an innate part of human nature. Its just there.

Thanks for this as it's something that comes up every time there's a violent event such as this. I'd also like to point out that someone can be mentally ill but not have that mental illness be a cause of the violent act committed. I think a better phrase to use when discussing something like this, in the absence of an actual diagnosis, is "mentally disturbed" or "mentally distressed." It still conveys that you may not think someone with a sound mind could commit a crime like this without implicating people with legitimate mental illnesses.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Coys1882

It's a shame - horrible waste of life.

Nothing can prevent or cure these things i'm certain of it. Religion, mental illness, lack of gun control, poverty, bigotry, self loathing - the reason doesn't matter, there's too many variables, too many moving parts.

It's a part of being human - it can't be fixed.

That's the spirit!

Why does it happen more often in the US than anywhere else? What are the factors? How can they be changed to reduce this to levels of violence in other civilized nations? Just giving up because it is complicated is a pretty poor course of action.

[nik-]

You guys know his MO by now. I blame this on all of you for feeding.

[KelVarnsen]

Came into see peter12 acting like peter12, leaving satisfied.

[AltaGuy]

Originally Posted by Coys1882

It's a shame - horrible waste of life.

Nothing can prevent or cure these things i'm certain of it. Religion, mental illness, lack of gun control, poverty, bigotry, self loathing - the reason doesn't matter, there's too many variables, too many moving parts.

It's a part of being human - it can't be fixed.

See, I have the exact opposite opinion on this. This situation has so many variables that we know lead to trouble: religious fundamentalism, self hatred, bigotry, mixed messaging, and access to guns.

Does anyone not know that the suicide rate among gay teenagers in devout families (both Muslim and Christian) is crazy high? Add in some cultural anger and some narcissistic rage, and I think those factors become very dangerous in the right person. It's almost too predictable, sadly.

[MRCboicgy]

Yo. Everybody back on topic.
Start up a debate thread if you want to continue the Ted Cruz-like debating-for-the-sake-of-debating.