About 50 people killed at gay nightclub in Florida

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by peter12

No, he clearly expressed it many, many times.

For a guy who seems to get off on how smart he is, you're a bit of a simpleton.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by peter12

Allegations of mental illness, closeted homosexuality, and great rage against many different types of people point to this case not being about religion at all.

I would expect some people to take back the callous things that they said but I know they won't.

Get over yourself.

A major driver of intolerance - toward homosexuality in this case, but also in general - is religion.

Try as you might to pretend otherwise Peter, your made up god played a significant role in this.

[CaptainCrunch]

You know part of me tends to think that we tend to throw around the term mental illness like a rabid cat being tossed into the crowd to make us feel better about crimes like this.

A normal person couldn't possibly do this kind of thing?

But at the end of the day, a normal person can do a thing like this. A sane person who might not be smart or might be gullible or easily influenced, or emotionally immature, or spoiled or guided or whatever.

It kind of does a bit of a disservice to the people that are suffering from real mental illnesses, because it shows a strong lack of education when we point to every violent crime or episode and state "Well he was mentally ill"

No wonder there's a stigma around mental illness, we've made it the boogey man and convenient excuse for every jerk and a$$hole and thrill killer out there. Are there people with severe mental illnesses out there that are violent, no question and absolutely, but the only way that we can figure out how to fix it or help that situation is to not cloud things by throwing every person that has a gripe with the world as being mentally ill.

Humans are the ultimate embodiment of the killer angel with their ability to hold their hand out in compassion but carrying a sword in the other hand willing to cut down anyone that they disagree with or have a grip with.

By all means, take this guys body, rip his brain out and study the crap out of it.

but at the end of the day a guy who's offended because of other peoples life style and goes on a killing spree, or a guy that's maybe a closeted homosexual and can't deal with it, to me isn't mentally ill, he's just an a$$hole.

[CliffFletcher]

It's possible - likely even - that the cause was homophobia, religion, and mental illness. It's not as though those three things can't co-exist in someone's mind.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Humans are the ultimate embodiment of the killer angel with their ability to hold their hand out in compassion but carrying a sword in the other hand willing to cut down anyone that they disagree with or have a grip with.

Humans are violent. But murdering multiple people at close range is not something that comes easily. Soldiers and police have to be trained to fire to kill, and even in combat a great many soldiers can't pull the trigger. Most humans have strong innate barriers against killing, especially killing strangers up close. The ones who don't are sociopaths.

I'm not saying someone who fires dozens of rounds into helpless strangers is without any doubt mentally ill. But the odds are pretty good that he's not wired right.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

You don't think his inability to express his sexuality to due the constraints of his religion might have led to the mental illness causing this?

Originally Posted by peter12

No, he clearly expressed it many, many times.

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

It has everything to do with religion. You may be too religious to see that. Why do you think he hates gay people? His dad has been telling him god hates gay people his whole life. The culture he grew up in including religion created this mess.

Originally Posted by habernac

*Whoosh*

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

For a guy who seems to get off on how smart he is, you're a bit of a simpleton.

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Get over yourself.

A major driver of intolerance - toward homosexuality in this case, but also in general - is religion.

Try as you might to pretend otherwise Peter, your made up god played a significant role in this.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Humans are violent. But murdering multiple people at close range is not something that comes easily. Soldiers and police have to be trained to fire to kill, and even in combat a great many soldiers can't pull the trigger. Most humans have strong innate barriers against killing, especially killing strangers up close. The ones who don't are sociopaths.

I'm not saying someone who fires dozens of rounds into helpless strangers is without any doubt mentally ill. But the odds are pretty good that he's not wired right.

I don't really want to derail the thread Cliff, but it seems to be already there. But I would argue that the ability to kill and kill easily is an innate part of human nature. Its just there.

Training a soldier to kill isn't about creating a new and violent persona of a person, its about making them ask the question, if need be can I kill. Usually the answer is yes, its not a reconditioning its an accepting of the cost of an action.

If you had to force recondition every soldier, all of the scientists at the manhatten project and the soldiers for example that participated in the rape of Nanking to kill or brutalize or mass murder then you'd have an argument that you need to create a condition of basically mental illness to carry out these acts.

I firmly believe that every person has a violent monster somewhere in their head just in case we ever need it, but we've put this thin layer of civilization over it in the last few thousand years to make the use of that monster unacceptable by creating laws and social conditions. But its there.

I would be willing to bet that this goof knew that what he was doing wasn't right by societal norms, but frankly he didn't care because of his level of hatered or shame that might have been created or pushed by someone else, to me that's a rational mind. I don't think he had voices in his head telling him to kill, or he saw his victims as werewolves or vampires which made a self created threat.

He just hated, for whatever reason he just hated, and he let that monster that's in all our heads out, and probably enjoyed doing it. That to me makes him not mentally ill.

Like I said I feel sorry for people with real mental illnesses that look at people easily attaching that label to this piece of garbage, because why would you want to come forward and have people think, hey maybe he's one small step from being a mass murderer.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

For a guy who seems to get off on how smart he is, you're a bit of a simpleton.

The court has ruled!

[peter12]

My only point is that it isn't as dyadic a relationship as "man was religious," so this caused him to "shoot up gay night club." Religion may have provided him the symbols to cause him to do some of this, but it is not solely responsible like a disease causes symptoms.

My only quibble is that ridiculously over-simplistic reasoning. He also was very closeted, but was also actively exploring some kind of homosexuality. Closeted religious people do this all the time, and they don't go shooting up night clubs.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by peter12

The court has ruled!

It's inspiring that you're trying to make the conversation about a hate crime and the largest mass murder in US history about you, but please, move on.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

It's inspiring that you're trying to make the conversation about a hate crime and the largest mass murder in US history about you, but please, move on.

How? Honestly, how? I'm not Islamic.

Could it maybe be just a little bit more complicated than some of you are trying to make it out to be? Just maybe?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by peter12

How? Honestly, how? I'm not Islamic.

Could it maybe be just a little bit more complicated than some of you are trying to make it out to be? Just maybe?

You're still doing it.

What's more complicated to you?

"This could be from multiple factors, including homophobia born from religious beliefs, oppression of homosexuality, and mental illness"

or

"This is definitely not about religion now ok! He's a gay!"

Really complex take pete, one of your best. I've engaged with you previously and enjoy our conversations but please, don't come in here looking for apologies because of the fact that his apparent sexuality completely vindicated religion on every level to you. That's pathetic and selfish. Nobody is apologising to you.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

You're still doing it.

What's more complicated to you?

"This could be from multiple factors, including homophobia born from religious beliefs, oppression of homosexuality, and mental illness"

or

"This is definitely not about religion now ok! He's a gay!"

Really complex take pete, one of your best. I've engaged with you previously and enjoy our conversations but please, don't come in here looking for pathetic apologies because of the fact that his apparent sexuality completely vindicated religion on every level to you. That's pathetic and selfish. Nobody is apologising to you.

That is not what I was saying at all.

Not even close.

People appreciate simplicity. I was pointing out that the fact that he attended the club many times, and used gay dating apps makes understanding this situation increasingly complicated - something that I said from the beginning!

Is this allowable amidst the absolutely disgusting repetitive drive-by takes of "religion poisons everything?"

Oh look, the Guardian - a very left-wing publication - agrees with me.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...ackd-sexuality

“Running away and trying to get in touch are psychologically not contradictory ... When you’re running, part of you is running from something that you would very much like to be in touch with but you can’t.” The annihilation on Sunday morning may have been Mateen’s final attempt to run away from the thing that obsessed him.

[PepsiFree]

Then think before you post and say it better the first time, because that's how you've come off.

You create the way people receive your opinion, not the other way around.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Then think before you post and say it better the first time, because that's how you've come off.

You create the way people receive your opinion, not the other way around.

This clearly goes both ways, and honestly, I expected a bit better from you.

Obviously, you have skin in this game. So do I, as a matter of fact.

[CaptainCrunch]

Guys, this is becoming close to a pissing match that is really wasting this thread. Can you take it somewhere else?

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by peter12

My only point is that it isn't as dyadic a relationship as "man was religious," so this caused him to "shoot up gay night club." Religion may have provided him the symbols to cause him to do some of this, but it is not solely responsible like a disease causes symptoms.

My only quibble is that ridiculously over-simplistic reasoning. He also was very closeted, but was also actively exploring some kind of homosexuality. Closeted religious people do this all the time, and they don't go shooting up night clubs.

It doesn't matter that the guy was religious or not. What matters is the condition that caused him to hate gay people. That condition is almost entirely religion and religion only. Why do homosexuals feel marginalized and " closeted"? Why do heterosexuals never feel "closeted"? Given the only difference between the two is sexual preference, what caused this phenomenon?

[peter12]

Mod edit- removed.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by peter12

This clearly goes both ways, and honestly, I expected a bit better from you.

Obviously, you have skin in this game. So do I, as a matter of fact.

It's hard to be reminded that people are still game to kill you for simply being you.

Apologies if it's made me extra emotional, nothing personal, I just think you're picking the wrong place to come in and say "I wonder if people are going to apologise for what they said about religion, they probably won't!"

[Coach]

Your very left wing quote also implies that he is running from something he can't be in touch with.

What would be the driving force behind that feeling?