The Stephan trial and evidence-based healthcare

[Knut]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

No, you missed my point - I was contrasting the religious types (Jehovas, what have you) with these guys. Or are these guys religious too? I thought they were just anti-vaccers.

They are Mormons

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by hes

they are Morons

fyp

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by Hes

They are Mormons

Have not read anything. Did they use their religion as an excuse or was it strictly a "holistic medicine" argument?
Like I said, I understand the religious anti-medicine types - their stance makes sense (from their POV; I think they are crazy). With these guys... how do they justify using "herbs" to treat meningitis next time? Was it just "bad luck" that it didn't work?

[IliketoPuck]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

No, you missed my point - I was contrasting the religious types (Jehovas, what have you) with these guys. Or are these guys religious too? I thought they were just anti-vaccers.

Not to jump to conclusions, but the names of their surviving (and deceased) children seem to indicate a religious leaning.

Edit: Mormons (per above).

[cracher]

Is their faith relevant? After reading that bloodboiling statement, it seems the issues are a lack of empathy for the child who suffered for 2 weeks and inability to accept their contribution to the negligence. These parents are self-righteous to the point of making me concerned for their other kids. The magic underwear is not at fault here.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

They don't appear remorseful in any way. I wonder if that will factor into sentencing. Actual jail time seems like a real possibility. Any sense that the mom and dad would be sentenced differently? Any guesses of the term, from those that work in this area?

[peter12]

I personally guess that there will be a differential sentence that will allow one of the parents to stay home with the children. Agreed on the statement. Enraging, arrogant, and complete dumbfounding ignorance. Also cowardly and stupid. What a ridiculous excuse for a man and a father.

[IliketoPuck]

Originally Posted by peter12

I personally guess that there will be a differential sentence that will allow one of the parents to stay home with the children. Agreed on the statement. Enraging, arrogant, and complete dumbfounding ignorance. Also cowardly and stupid. What a ridiculous excuse for a man and a father.

Nice hair though.

[peter12]

Gorgeous hair.

[Buff]

They can't perfectly use religion as the reason why they chose naturopathic ways to treat their son's illness. I know of a few mormon doctors in Lethbridge who felt strongly that this couple should have been found guilty for their wishy washy ways.

I was actually shocked when one said that they need to be found guilty, because mormon's tend to stick together and defend each other. At least in my observations.

[GGG]

I do worry about these types of convictions because I'm on the it will probably get better side and think most people who visit hospitals and minor emergencies are just wasting the systems money. And therefore if this type of thing runs away you end up with creating a huge burden on the system. Though in this case what should be a very high standard was clearly met.

The key in this case was the parents own testimony that he was too stiff to sit in a car seat. At that point its pretty clear that something else is wrong.

I know there is a lot of hate directed at the naturopath but even they said get your kid to a hospital so it seems that although practicing quackery when the situation became urgent the naturopath gave the correct recommendation.

I don't think taking away the other kids or Jail is the answer, im not sure what is. The emotional damage you would do by taking away the other kids from their parents is greater than the risk of another one dying from a preventable illness.

[ricosuave]

There is a huge difference between going to the emergency for sniffles and other minor inconveniences (which people do already anyway, but I digress) and for ignoring the symptoms and advice of a medical professional for almost a week while the kids health obviously worsened.

I have no sympathy for people like this and feel they should get all the disgust that is being shown to them right now. You don't trust a what a Dr. is saying, fine, go to another, go to a walk-in clinic. But when the child was obviously not improving, they should have know that the horseradish balm was actually horse####.

This wasn't ignorance, or a 'mistake', it was negligence.

Along with societies helicopter parenting and dumbing down/ultra safety minded everything, I also am baffled at the fear of modern medicine. I just don't understand why people are like this. This should be the golden age of information and discovery but for every step forward we seem to take many backwards.

[troutman]

Dr. Steven Novella (SGU) blog on the trial:

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org...th-of-toddler/

Back to the OP and point #2:

Therefore, how much blame does Canada have for licensing a profession of, essentially, fake medical providers? Governments that legitimize such professions are failing in their duty to their citizens in the same manner that the Stephans failed Ezekiel. Ezekiel’s death is therefore on the heads of the naturopathic profession and the Canadian government as well.

[There is also a much more diffuse blame, but still clear, on the entire alternative medicine community. The Stephans did not exist in a vacuum: they are a product of a cultural movement that seeks to legitimize what was considered health fraud just a generation ago. This is what happens when you abandon rigorous science as the basis of a medical standard of care, when you water down that scientific standard, try to subvert the proper functioning of medical science, and lobby for regulations that allow for pseudoscience and just plain bad science in medicine.

The Stephans are not an anomaly – they are a symptom of the intellectual bankruptcy and deception of the alternative medicine movement.

Governments have been slowly abandoning the defense of the standard of care, and in a way it is hypocritical of them to condemn parents for doing what they have implicitly sanctioned.]


Do our governments have to do more to regulate and inform about CAM?

There is a TV and radio ad often aired in Alberta by the Alberta Chiropractors. The main thrust of the ad is that the majority of Albertans have already been to a Chiropractor (this is the logical fallacy of appeal to popularity).

Why is there no rebuttal or requirement to defend the claims made?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by GGG

I do worry about these types of convictions because I'm on the it will probably get better side and think most people who visit hospitals and minor emergencies are just wasting the systems money. And therefore if this type of thing runs away you end up with creating a huge burden on the system. Though in this case what should be a very high standard was clearly met.

The key in this case was the parents own testimony that he was too stiff to sit in a car seat. At that point its pretty clear that something else is wrong.

I know there is a lot of hate directed at the naturopath but even they said get your kid to a hospital so it seems that although practicing quackery when the situation became urgent the naturopath gave the correct recommendation.

I don't think taking away the other kids or Jail is the answer, im not sure what is. The emotional damage you would do by taking away the other kids from their parents is greater than the risk of another one dying from a preventable illness.

I would argue that most people have a sense of common sense, if their kid has a cold or sniffles or a small cut, they're not going to rush to the doctor, but they will look for signs that its not improving or they're getting worse.

This kid had meningitis for a couple of weeks, I'm pretty sure that those symptoms after a few days are far worse then croup or a cold. On top of that a medical professional friend told them exactly what the kid had and they ignored it. That to me is the neglect argument.

There will be some people and are some people that bring every minor thing to the emergency room, it happens we have to live with it. But common sense says that even with that ruling that won't happen.

When your kid is hallucinating, or stiffening up, or having trouble breathing, put down the hot pepper shake and run to the hospital.

I also find the statement that the husband made to be emotionally bankrupt.

On top of that at this point, giving them different sentences so one can stay with the kids is giving the wrong message. The old, you messed up as a parent but we're going to let you go.

Also the question has to be asked by the judge. If I let you two go, or one of you go, are you going to change your mindsets? Frankly the facebook page tells me "No"

[cracher]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Also the question has to be asked by the judge. If I let you two go, or one of you go, are you going to change your mindsets? Frankly the facebook page tells me "No"

And that fb page is concerning, especially in light of trout's post. These two degenerates did not exist in a vacuum. Are there entire communities of these sociopaths out there? In what deranged reality does your sense of "parental rights to use hotdog condiments" override your empathy for your kids' progressive symptoms?

[CaptainCrunch]

I wonder if their lawyer pinched a huge fit that started with the words "What the . . . "

[Cyclops]

Originally Posted by ricosuave

There is a huge difference between going to the emergency for sniffles and other minor inconveniences (which people do already anyway, but I digress) and for ignoring the symptoms and advice of a medical professional for almost a week while the kids health obviously worsened.

I have no sympathy for people like this and feel they should get all the disgust that is being shown to them right now. You don't trust a what a Dr. is saying, fine, go to another, go to a walk-in clinic. But when the child was obviously not improving, they should have know that the horseradish balm was actually horse####.

This wasn't ignorance, or a 'mistake', it was negligence.

Along with societies helicopter parenting and dumbing down/ultra safety minded everything, I also am baffled at the fear of modern medicine. I just don't understand why people are like this. This should be the golden age of information and discovery but for every step forward we seem to take many backwards.

Its because many doctors don't seem to care, in my opinion that is the reason for the rise of alternatives. My daughter was rushed to the hospital a couple years ago because she was prescribed something that she should not have been taking at her age. What kind of discipline was given to the doctor at the clinic which prescribed it to her? Nothing.....it's hard enough to file a complaint, but to expect anything to come from it is pointless.


A bit off topic but wasn't a doctor found guilty of billing dead patients for a year or 2? If I remember his licence was suspended for 6 months, that was it. Hard to have faith in these people.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Cyclops

Its because many doctors don't seem to care, in my opinion that is the reason for the rise of alternatives. My daughter was rushed to the hospital a couple years ago because she was prescribed something that she should not have been taking at her age. What kind of discipline was given to the doctor at the clinic which prescribed it to her? Nothing.....it's hard enough to file a complaint, but to expect anything to come from it is pointless.


A bit off topic but wasn't a doctor found guilty of billing dead patients for a year or 2? If I remember his licence was suspended for 6 months, that was it. Hard to have faith in these people.

I am sorry to hear about your daughter.

But I think you are unfair to not "have faith in these people".

What about the pharmacist that filled the prescription for your daughter, some fault must rest with that individual as well.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

I don't think anyone is arguing that the medical profession is perfect, or that there aren't any bad apples in that profession. Heck of a lot more regulation imposed on medical doctors and a professional body that actually means something.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I would argue that most people have a sense of common sense, if their kid has a cold or sniffles or a small cut, they're not going to rush to the doctor, but they will look for signs that its not improving or they're getting worse.

This kid had meningitis for a couple of weeks, I'm pretty sure that those symptoms after a few days are far worse then croup or a cold. On top of that a medical professional friend told them exactly what the kid had and they ignored it. That to me is the neglect argument.

There will be some people and are some people that bring every minor thing to the emergency room, it happens we have to live with it. But common sense says that even with that ruling that won't happen.

When your kid is hallucinating, or stiffening up, or having trouble breathing, put down the hot pepper shake and run to the hospital.

I also find the statement that the husband made to be emotionally bankrupt.

On top of that at this point, giving them different sentences so one can stay with the kids is giving the wrong message. The old, you messed up as a parent but we're going to let you go.

Also the question has to be asked by the judge. If I let you two go, or one of you go, are you going to change your mindsets? Frankly the facebook page tells me "No"

So what punishment does the least damage to the surviving children and still punishes the parents appropriately?