Teachers work "really hard'.

[Harry Lime]

That is why the teachers themselves are campaigning for lower class sizes. The wage thing is a combination of Union leaders playing their own game, and the Province knowing that dealing with a paper transaction of money is less work than figuring out a new class-size structure. Laziness and self serving on both sides of the table, but the teachers themselves are dealing with issues not being addressed as strenuously as they should be. A simple wage raise would be a failure by the Union and a win by the Province. If this happens, the teachers should vote to remove the Union leadership.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

If the unions ever accepted pay differential (which they won't), it should include what sort of degree they have. For students in social sciences, humanities, and fine arts, teaching is about the best job they can hope for. By a long shot. Which is why teachers are overwhelming drawn from those fields, and few have backgrounds in science, engineering, math, and other technical studies. We'd see more, and better, teachers from those under-represented fields if there was a pay differential.

This is a good idea. Pay a math/science teacher 120k max and an English/history teacher 80k max. Base it on alternative career pay.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Rathji

I do admit that there are problems with getting rid of bad teachers, because they have protection, but I am just thinking about this from a practical perspective.

How do people who are bad employees still have jobs? Shouldn't every one of them be unemployed? Do these people wander the world moving from one job to another every 3 months when they get canned?

The reality of the situation is not everyone can be an above average employee, or even just average, some of them are going to flat out suck and they can be kept in a job because it is harder/more expensive for management to fire and replace them than it is to keep them on the job.

My point is, you can't expect much deviation from this pattern from any field, so accepting that some teachers are bad at their jobs is really just a fact of life. This is just personal experience, but in the 12 combined years that all my kids have been in school, ranging from K to Grade 12, there has only been one teacher who I would have considered as bad enough that he should lose his job. Maybe that's an acceptable ratio?

An advantage of the private sector is layoffs occur during recession and better personnel are kept. If x% of teachers were laid off every x years it would allow new teachers into the system in a similar manner to the private sector.

As to what these teachers who are laid off would do? They would be the under employed substitutes instead of the be ambitious teachers in that role.

I think the school board and teachers union system is severely broken and from the outside looks soul sucking to be a part of. That's where any improvement / vitriol should be directed.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by pylon

This.

I don't doubt teachers are very important. But I work a 50 minimum, sometimes 60 hour work week, with your standard, legally mandated vacation time. I feel I'm fairly compensated, but if they feel "48 hours a week." is going above and beyond.... Well they need a reality check.

Just curious, but what is it you do for a living?

From my experience (having taught kids for a few years), it's hard work. Exhausting. A lot harder than sitting at a desk, writing emails, sitting in meetings, talking to adults, shuffling paper and doing pretty much the same thing every day, which is what I do now (for more money).

We can bash on unions and bitch about teachers and their sweet vacations and how they get can't get fired and that's fun, but we should also acknowledge that teaching other people's kids is difficult work. More difficult (and a lot more important) than most "office" jobs.

Maybe they are overpaid, maybe it is too hard to fire them, and maybe some of them suck, but unless you've actually done the job, it's hard to compare it to your own job, or the hours you work.

[The Yen Man]

I don't think teaching is an easy job, but at the same time, I also don't think it's any harder than an office job. They're just two different types of jobs suited for different types of people. So I do think it's unfair that people who aren't teachers criticize teachers for having an easy job. But I also think teachers who complain about their job being harder than an office job are also out of line.

Lets be honest, they're both easier jobs than jobs like paramedics, firemen, or police officers. Now those guys earn their salaries for sure.

[edslunch]

I have a (home) office engineering job. I have given training courses from time to time and for me there is nothing more draining. No matter how easy it difficult the subject you're always on. I much prefer to manage my own work. So yes, I have a lot of respect for teachers.

I agree there is a mix of teachers who try really hard and those who coast, but I haven't seen too many big businesses where that's not the case too.

[Major Major]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

I don't think teaching is an easy job, but at the same time, I also don't think it's any harder than an office job. They're just two different types of jobs suited for different types of people. So I do think it's unfair that people who aren't teachers criticize teachers for having an easy job. But I also think teachers who complain about their job being harder than an office job are also out of line.

Lets be honest, they're both easier jobs than jobs like paramedics, firemen, or police officers. Now those guys earn their salaries for sure.

You have had a lot of lines of work in your life! Is that why they call you the Yen Man?

[OMG!WTF!]

I taught first and second year university students and it doesn't get much easier at those ages. Being on stage every day was really hard. There's a point though when you stop trying to create from scratch every day and start coasting a bit.

I disagree with paying math/ science backgrounds more based on earning potential in other fields. Subject matter knowledge is the easy part. The hard part is developing teaching skills and that puts all teachers on an even field. Knowing more and advanced science does not help with teaching basic high school curriculum. You can get five semesters in to your university program before you ever see a real professor.

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by Rathji

I agree, but how can you do that?

Lets take the public/private sector out of the equation. How would you go about setting up processes to stop bad employees from staying employed?

The only process I believe would work is to have random and frequent inspections, especially during the first two years of teaching, before they attain permanent certification.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Locke

Lets be honest, they're not outside crushing big rocks into smaller rocks or anything.

Exactly. Which is why focusing on "hours of work" for teachers is inane.

[icecube]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

People are perfectly willing to start teaching kids for 36k in the states. What are we at in AB? 50k-60k to start? Do we have better teachers or worse kids?

No wonder they seem so stupid compared to the rest of the western world. They pay their teachers so pitifully.

[Swarly]

I sure wish I could hit play on a vcr or hand out some problem question worksheets and mark down 2 hours of 'work' at my job.

[kevman]

Originally Posted by llwhiteoutll

Should be a comparison of hours worked, not days worked. I worked about 215 days last year, but close to 2700 hours.

12 hour days? You need to go home. Spend some time with your friends and family.

Teaching is a well respected career path that is compensated accordingly. Nothing is stopping any of you from going to school and becoming a teacher if it is in fact such a free ride.

[troutman]

My friend had to work on the yearbook every night this week until midnight. She has to spend all day Sunday marking.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by btimbit

I can tell where this thread is going already.

All I'll add is I wish there was a way to hold bad teachers more accountable. I do believe it's a very hard job, and I wish the good teachers weren't so few and far between. I'd probably burn out after a few years of that job, but what I can't understand is why so many teachers keep doing it after they develop such a disdain for children.

The good teachers deserve way more praise than they get. The bad ones, I'd like to see criticized more openly.

This. My son's K-grade 2 teachers were awesome, we felt really fortunate.

His grade 3 teacher is a whole other story. She's nothing more than a bloviating gasbag, who can talk a big game but it's quite obvious that she lacks the energy to back it up at all. Report cards look copy/pasted to the point where the comments would work for any child. Parent teacher interviews were informal/disorganized to the point of having 10 sets of parents milling around waiting to talk to her. Couldn't get a word in because mother hen clucked with 3-4 moms the whole time. We've gone to her with questions and it's clear she's just interested in empty platitudes and getting home on time. It's been infuriating to be honest, I don't think my son has learned a damned thing this year.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

This. My son's K-grade 2 teachers were awesome, we felt really fortunate.

His grade 3 teacher is a whole other story. She's nothing more than a bloviating gasbag, who can talk a big game but it's quite obvious that she lacks the energy to back it up at all. Report cards look copy/pasted to the point where the comments would work for any child. Parent teacher interviews were informal/disorganized to the point of having 10 sets of parents milling around waiting to talk to her. Couldn't get a word in because mother hen clucked with 3-4 moms the whole time. We've gone to her with questions and it's clear she's just interested in empty platitudes and getting home on time. It's been infuriating to be honest, I don't think my son has learned a damned thing this year.

Exactly the problem I was talking about. The affects that that can have on a child is huge. Having a teacher like that at that age is exactly what turned my schooling into an absolute chore. You ruin a kids desire to learn that young and it's just a brutal uphill battle from there.



I don't like the crap that teachers get. "Oh, they get all summer off, their jobs are easy!" Yeah well guys that put in sewer lines get all winter off, is that job easy too? Teaching isn't easy. But I hate the notion that they're above criticism just because it's hard and they have to deal with kids.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Swarly

I sure wish I could hit play on a vcr or hand out some problem question worksheets and mark down 2 hours of 'work' at my job.

Please tell me this was satire.

[bigtmac19]

The JK/SK programs in Ontario are taught by ECE grads. My son's girlfriend went back to school to get her ECE because she wanted to make the switch from working with the developmental/behaviour students. The ECE's are not treated like the teachers with respect to pay nor do they get any prep time during the school day. She spent hours every night doing prep. Those primary classes do require a LOT of prep. She ended up quitting so she could have a life outside of school. The teachers resent the ECE's, it's a crappy system.

[blueski]

This job is ripe for robots to swoop in and do all the menial tasks like teaching with just a handful of relationship/socialization coaches left overseeing the whole school. I'd give it ten years tops, teaching like we know it will be gone.

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by btimbit

Exactly the problem I was talking about. The affects that that can have on a child is huge. Having a teacher like that at that age is exactly what turned my schooling into an absolute chore. You ruin a kids desire to learn that young and it's just a brutal uphill battle from there.



I don't like the crap that teachers get. "Oh, they get all summer off, their jobs are easy!" Yeah well guys that put in sewer lines get all winter off, is that job easy too? Teaching isn't easy. But I hate the notion that they're above criticism just because it's hard and they have to deal with kids.

Slight devils advocate here, but it's very rare for any construction worker to get winters off. The one industry that really shuts down for winter is concrete pouring. Teachers do have a non labour intense job with wicked benefits and yes they're overpaid but I couldn't imagine having the patience of a Jr high teacher.