Ethics of eating meat

[photon]

I'm 100% for society switching to insects instead of meat. AFTER I die.

Vat grown meat is also fine.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by photon

How is this not posted yet.

We are omnivores so if you are going to deprive yourself of what is natural part of the human diet it's probably good practice to join a support group.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by northcrunk

Should we just de-evolve slowly and go back into the trees and walking on all four limbs? Is it really in the best interest of mankind to "evolve" into vegetarians? Diet is not an evolutionary outcome but will determine future evolution. We are just making our species weaker by not consuming protein. Personally I could care less what other people want to eat and my sister is a vegetarian so I'm used to cooking a couple vegetarian dishes when they come over.

Why is the de-evolve necessary? We have evolved in other areas since the time we needed meat. We don't need bones anymore to create tools. We don't need meat anymore to get protein.

[peter12]

If I recall too, most vegans actually don't stick with being vegans. It is too strenuous and dull a diet! At least vegetarians can eat cheese!

[northcrunk]

Originally Posted by Dan02

I think T-Rich has the best argument there is for going vegan, we've evolved beyond the food chain, no one is saying we don't need protein anymore, but we now have the knowledge and ability to produce protein on a large scale that doesn't require harvesting animals.

The problem is very few people are capable of being strict enough on their diet to eat a fully complete diet as it is yet alone removing meat as a primary protien source, this includes most of the vegans/vegetarians I know. The preachers would have you think going vegan is the cure to all your health woes, but surprisingly, they're just as likely to be overweight and unhealthy as anyone else I know.

WTF how is that even possible. Great example of how humans think they are some special flower in this world. We are an animal just like a Lion is. We are and will always be a part of the food chain. If we decide to just eat plants then we will be at the bottom of said chain.

[OMG!WTF!]

Getting vegetarian sources for protein is really easy. If nothing else you can get 25 grams per scoop of whey. If you just eat meat you'll be very unhealthy and die. If you just eat a vegetarian diet you can get everything you need and live quit well. Obviously the right amount of everything is ideal. But we have no physical need for meat where as we do for veg.

[Looch City]

There are other sources of protein too..........

[Dan02]

Originally Posted by northcrunk

WTF how is that even possible. Great example of how humans think they are some special flower in this world. We are an animal just like a Lion is. We are and will always be a part of the food chain. If we decide to just eat plants then we will be at the bottom of said chain.

Our intelligence allows us to produce enough food to satisfy our nutritional requirements without harvest animals. We no longer NEED to harvest animals for food. I say this as a dedicated meat eater, but who is at least open to the idea it may not be the best for us and our planet.

And we are a special flower in this world, unless you're aware of another species that has achieved our level of intelligence. Until another species is capable of developing nuclear weapons I highly doubt we're surrendering our position at the top of the food chain whether we go full on vegan or not.

Now eating meat is easier and more convenient and allows for a much tastier diet, there's no disputing that.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by photon

I'm 100% for society switching to insects instead of meat. AFTER I die.

Vat grown meat is also fine.

Maybe all newborns should be required to eat vegan, and never eat meat. Us meat eaters will just die off eventually. More meat for us! Sorry boy, that's daddy's steak. Enjoy your tofurky dog.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by T-Rich

I'm pro-biodiversity so I don't want any animals to go extinct but I also believe in natural selection so if an animal can't exist on its own without human intervention then perhaps it doesn't deserve to exist. Cows, chickens, and pigs are fairly distinct in that we've reduced the numbers of most other animals by destroying their habitat where as we've artificially inflated their numbers which is causing large environmental impacts. So what I'd want is to see their numbers decrease to a more natural equilibrium. I'd be disappointed if the last groups of chickens, pigs and cows were living on a remote island and humanity came along and killed them but if they were living on that island and died out over time due to natural selection I have no problem with that.

But the thing is that while wild animals might replace some marginal grazing land most of the land will be turned into other agriculture, irrigated and still used to produce food. So I don't think you see a gain of biodiversity by removing our massed produced food options.

The natural equilibrium of cows, pigs and chickens is zero in their current forms. Veganism is pro the ending of certain human domesticated animal species. That isn't necessarily unethical but it is supporting the extinction of the species not the eliminating of suffering of the species and I think that is a important distinction when discussing the ethics of eating meat.

I also thing that Cows and Pigs have won natural selection. They have chosen in a genetic sense to trade their edibleness in exchange for existence. They are the most dominant of the animal species. One my argue that they don't get to exude there animalness or are depressed or tortured but that is anthropomorphizing them. From the natural selection stand point they are winning. One might also say that dogs have made the same "choice" as cows. They don't get to be their most dogness and have had to adapt or be put down but their genetic line is successfully passed down.

[Fuzz]

Also, what about our pets? Do they still get to keep eating meat? Can't imagine they would survive well on a plant diet.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

And now we have the same thing from meat eaters.

The difference is that meat eaters almost never start these arguments.

They happen because someone starts proselytising about how their personal life choices are "more ethical", and which is really just code for "I'm better than you". We, for the most part, are willing to live and let live. People like Shogun are not, and that is why their overboard preaching is met with strong resistance.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by northcrunk

WTF how is that even possible. Great example of how humans think they are some special flower in this world. We are an animal just like a Lion is. We are and will always be a part of the food chain. If we decide to just eat plants then we will be at the bottom of said chain.

What you eat and what you CAN eat, are different things.

Bears can have diets that are up to 90% vegetarian, and the meat they do eat is usually already killed animals or fish. It's pretty rare that a bear takes down a live animal for eating. They will dig for roots before they start hunting for game.

Are they at the bottom of the food chain?

What are you even implying by being "bottom of the food chain?" That another species will take over being dominant on earth because we decided not to eat meat?

What if we grow our own meat? We're not killing any animals. Are we still at the bottom of the food chain?

I have no problem with eating meat if it can be sustainable, but this food chain argument is pretty ludicrous. We were never on top of the food chain because of what we eat. We are on top because we invented ways to kill the things that would eat us otherwise.

[flylock shox]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Maybe all newborns should be required to eat vegan, and never eat meat. Us meat eaters will just die off eventually. More meat for us! Sorry boy, that's daddy's steak. Enjoy your tofurky dog.

All joking aside, this is totally the best solution.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Maybe all newborns should be required to eat vegan, and never eat meat. Us meat eaters will just die off eventually. More meat for us! Sorry boy, that's daddy's steak. Enjoy your tofurky dog.

my kids would kill me in my sleep

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by T-Rich

I'm pro-biodiversity so I don't want any animals to go extinct but I also believe in natural selection so if an animal can't exist on its own without human intervention then perhaps it doesn't deserve to exist. Cows, chickens, and pigs are fairly distinct in that we've reduced the numbers of most other animals by destroying their habitat where as we've artificially inflated their numbers which is causing large environmental impacts. So what I'd want is to see their numbers decrease to a more natural equilibrium. I'd be disappointed if the last groups of chickens, pigs and cows were living on a remote island and humanity came along and killed them but if they were living on that island and died out over time due to natural selection I have no problem with that.

Natural selection would probably see cow, chicken and pig populations explode without human intervention, they're just genetically nearly bullet proof at this point in time.

Its like introducing domesticated rabbits, once they get past that first generation and their survival instincts return to the surface, they'll probably squeeze out any similar wild life .

Out of curiousity does your pro natural selection no human intervention stance extent to humans?

[northcrunk]

Meat, Cooked Foods Needed for Early Human Brain

http://www.livescience.com/24875-meat-human-brain.html

Vegetarian, vegan and raw diets can be healthy — likely far healthier than the typical American diet. But to continue to call these diets "natural" for humans, in terms of evolution, is a bit of a stretch, according to two recent, independent studies.

Although this isn't the first such assertion from archaeologists and evolutionary biologists, the new studies demonstrate, respectively, that it would have been biologically implausible for humans to evolve such a large brain on a raw, vegan diet and that meat-eating was a crucial element of human evolution at least 1 million years before the dawn of humankind.

Anyone trying to convert someone to veganism is anti-human imo. Hurt yourself, not the whole species.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by northcrunk

Meat, Cooked Foods Needed for Early Human Brain

http://www.livescience.com/24875-meat-human-brain.html





Anyone trying to convert someone to veganism is anti-human imo. Hurt yourself, not the whole species.

But the evolution from that already happened. I don't see anything that suggests it's needed for further evolutionary development, or that people need meat in early life, just that early humans needed it to become what we are now. All the evolutionary aspects of our species growing our brains beyond primates is in our genetic code now.

This is even quoted in the article:

"The bottom line is, it is certainly possible to survive on an exclusively raw diet in our modern day, but it was most likely impossible to survive on an exclusively raw diet when our species appeared," Herculano-Houzel told LiveScience.

[northcrunk]

So you think we should just stay where we are and not evolve any further?

[Tyler]

Originally Posted by northcrunk

So you think we should just stay where we are and not evolve any further?

I think the obvious logical evolution of our species is to move past a point where we need to destroy our environment for the sole purpose of murdering sentient beings when we really don't have to