Ethics of eating meat

[northcrunk]

If humans never started eating meat we would not have the complex society we have now. We developed tools (broken stones) to be able to scrape meat and scavenge. Eventually due to the protein our brains grew, we developed bipedal movement and our tools became more complex to the point where we could produce weapons and hunt. This led to the development of agriculture and complex society/cities.

If we stayed like the vegans humans would be sitting in trees picking fruit and throwing our own feces at each other.

[northcrunk]

Originally Posted by GGG

For those who choose not to eat meat

Do you believe that Cows, Chickens and Pigs should not exist?

They sure wouldn't if we didn't eat them. It's not like these are naturally ocuring species (minus wild boar, not really the same as a pig though). These animals we developed over thousands of years of animal husbandry and genetic selection by humans.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Itse

It's really ironic how it's supposedly vegans that are "obnoxiously loud" about their diet choices, and in practice you see a thread full of "meat eaters" banging their chests over their desire to eat meat or whining about someone else's choice to eat vegetarian. I've known easily dozens if not hundreds of vegetarians of various levels in my life, and have in fact never met this mythical "obnoxiously in your face" type. But you can't open the internet on the topic without the "carnivores" going on and on about it.

It's pretty funny really, in a pathetic way.

I actually read a really good column on the topic where a reporter who tried "vegan challenge month" noticed how the worst part of veganism isn't any dietary impracticality or having to learn new ways to cook, it's mostly that you have to try and hide it in public or otherwise your meat eating friends will just not stop talking about it, to a point where having any normal conversations becomes impossible.

Too bad it was in Finnish, I'd find it and link it otherwise.

Look at how this thread was started as pretty much a thinly veiled advertisement. Of course we're going to come in here like a bunch of deranged T-Rexes.

And yes we all have stories of incredibly annoying Veggies and Vegans, and born again whatevers that seem to need validation about their life choices by bragging about their life choices. that should tell you something.

[T-Rich]

Originally Posted by GGG

For those who choose not to eat meat

Do you believe that Cows, Chickens and Pigs should not exist?

I'm pro-biodiversity so I don't want any animals to go extinct but I also believe in natural selection so if an animal can't exist on its own without human intervention then perhaps it doesn't deserve to exist. Cows, chickens, and pigs are fairly distinct in that we've reduced the numbers of most other animals by destroying their habitat where as we've artificially inflated their numbers which is causing large environmental impacts. So what I'd want is to see their numbers decrease to a more natural equilibrium. I'd be disappointed if the last groups of chickens, pigs and cows were living on a remote island and humanity came along and killed them but if they were living on that island and died out over time due to natural selection I have no problem with that.

[Reaper]

Originally Posted by SHOGUN

Hunters are the biggest ****ing cowards on earth. They shoot innocent animals that harm no one for the gratification of adding imaginary inches to her dick.

I'm confused. Are they cowards or ladyboys? And if you don't want hunters involved in population control of animals (like migratory birds) then you need to get working on some contraception for them. Good luck on condoms for corkscrew penised, rapey ducks. But I won't go on as it seems like you have everything figured out about life anyways.

[T-Rich]

Originally Posted by northcrunk

If humans never started eating meat we would not have the complex society we have now. We developed tools (broken stones) to be able to scrape meat and scavenge. Eventually due to the protein our brains grew, we developed bipedal movement and our tools became more complex to the point where we could produce weapons and hunt. This led to the development of agriculture and complex society/cities.

If we stayed like the vegans humans would be sitting in trees picking fruit and throwing our own feces at each other.

That's great and no one is arguing that we shouldn't have eaten meat to get where we are today. But now that we're here should we continue to eat meat? There were no factory farms/ethics issues when we were developing bipedals movement, our diet choices didn't cause potentially irreparable harmful effects to the environment at that time.

If we evolved to eat meat and become omnivores for the best interests of mankind, couldn't we evolve to become vegetarians for the best interests of mankind in the future.

[Tyler]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

The first rule of veganism is you tell everyone how special you are to be a vegan.

This is quite a humorous observation. Surprised I've never heard it before.

[troutman]

JOSEPH CAMPBELL: That’s right. The basic hunting myth, I would say, is of a kind of covenant between the animal world and the human world, where the animal gives its life willingly. They are regarded generally as willing victims, with the understanding that their life, which transcends their physical entity, will be returned to the soil or to the mother through some ritual of restoration. And the principal rituals, for instance, and the principal divinities are associated with the main hunting animal, the animal who is the master animal, and sends the flocks to be killed, you know. To the Indians of the American plains, it was the buffalo. You go to the northwest coast, it’s the salmon. The great festivals have to do with the run of salmon coming in. When you go to South Africa, the eland, the big, magnificent antelope, is the principal animal to the Bushmen, for example.
BILL MOYERS: And the principal animal, the master animal
JOSEPH CAMPBELL: Is the one that furnishes the food.
BILL MOYERS: So there grew up between human beings and animals, a bonding, as you say, which required one to be consumed by the other.
JOSEPH CAMPBELL: That’s the way life is.
BILL MOYERS: Do you think this troubled early man, too
JOSEPH CAMPBELL: Absolutely, that’s why you have the rites, because it did trouble him.
BILL MOYERS: What kind of rites?
JOSEPH CAMPBELL: Rituals of appeasement to the animals, of thanks to the animal. A very interesting aspect here is the identity of the hunter with the animal.
BILL MOYERS: You mean, after the animal has been shot.
JOSEPH CAMPBELL: After the animal has been killed, the hunter then has to fulfill certain rites in a kind of “participation mystique,” a mystic participation with the animals whose death he has brought about, and whose meat is to become his life. So the killing is not simply slaughter, at any rate, it’s a ritual act. It’s a recognition of your dependency and of the voluntary giving of this food to you by the animal who has given it. It’s a beautiful thing, and it turns life into a mythological experience.
BILL MOYERS: The hunt becomes what?
JOSEPH CAMPBELL: It becomes a ritual. The hunt is a ritual.
BILL MOYERS: Expressing a hope of resurrection, that the animal was food and you needed the animal to return.
JOSEPH CAMPBELL: And some kind of respect for the animal that was killed; that’s the thing that gets me all the time in this hunting ceremonial system.
BILL MOYERS: Respect for the animal.
JOSEPH CAMPBELL: The respect for the animal and more than respect, I mean, that animal becomes a messenger of divine power, do you see.
BILL MOYERS: And you wind up as the hunter killing the messenger.
JOSEPH CAMPBELL: Killing the god.


http://billmoyers.com/content/ep-3-j...tellers-audio/

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

And yes we all have stories of incredibly annoying Veggies and Vegans, and born again whatevers that seem to need validation about their life choices by bragging about their life choices. that should tell you something.

And now we have the same thing from meat eaters.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

And now we have the same thing from meat eaters.

I don't really think meat-eaters tell vegans not to be vegans.

Yet vegans will tell meat-eaters they should be vegans.

It's like the respect of the lifestyle is only a one-way street.

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

And now we have the same thing from meat eaters.

Honestly, as someone with an Asian background, I hear this debate the most in North America. I can't say I've ever heard this argument amongst most of my friends/relatives in Asia. If anything, the convos are like, "OH SHOOT! We forgot person is doing a vegetarian fast at the moment/converted vegetarian. Go down to the market and grab XYZ so we can prepare a meal for him." Very accommodating.

Semi stereotyping, but mentality wise, I feel like it's how typically I see North Americans treat a discussion about special requests for allergies. No one really gets offended. But dietary restrictions for things you aren't allergic to? Man... that's a doozy.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

And yes we all have stories of incredibly annoying Veggies and Vegans, and born again whatevers that seem to need validation about their life choices by bragging about their life choices. that should tell you something.

Since clearly no bragging by anyone is actually required to get this reaction from people, as once again displayed in this here thread, it mostly suggests to me that surprisingly many people are prone to hysterical overreactions when ever they hear the word veganism.

For example you stormed into a perfectly valid discussion on ethics and started banging others over the head with your caveman ideology like an insecure teenager for no real reason, and when confronted with it you then argue that really, it's not your fault, it's those damn hypothetical annoying vegans who made you that way and just look at someone advertising their product. My god, the scandal!

You really don't make for a very convincing case that your behavior is about anything else than you.

[JiriHrdina]

Can we just agree that people are being dicks on both sides, and digging their feet in. Anyone that can't see that is being blinded by their own bias.

[2Stonedbirds]

That renders my pitchfork completely useless though.

[peter12]

When I met my wife, she was a vegan. It never bothered me. If you are judging anyone by their food choices, you are a moron. Lots more important things in the world to worry about. Now, I know vegans will find that offensive because they have a bizarre moral compass, but I think vegetarians can get behind that.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Itse

Since clearly no bragging by anyone is actually required to get this reaction from people, as once again displayed in this here thread, it mostly suggests to me that surprisingly many people are prone to hysterical overreactions when ever they hear the word veganism.

For example you stormed into a perfectly valid discussion on ethics and started banging others over the head with your caveman ideology like an insecure teenager for no real reason, and when confronted with it you then argue that really, it's not your fault, it's those damn hypothetical annoying vegans who made you that way and just look at someone advertising their product. My god, the scandal!

You really don't make for a very convincing case that your behavior is about anything else than you.

[northcrunk]

Originally Posted by T-Rich

That's great and no one is arguing that we shouldn't have eaten meat to get where we are today. But now that we're here should we continue to eat meat? There were no factory farms/ethics issues when we were developing bipedals movement, our diet choices didn't cause potentially irreparable harmful effects to the environment at that time.

If we evolved to eat meat and become omnivores for the best interests of mankind, couldn't we evolve to become vegetarians for the best interests of mankind in the future.

Should we just de-evolve slowly and go back into the trees and walking on all four limbs? Is it really in the best interest of mankind to "evolve" into vegetarians? Diet is not an evolutionary outcome but will determine future evolution. We are just making our species weaker by not consuming protein. Personally I could care less what other people want to eat and my sister is a vegetarian so I'm used to cooking a couple vegetarian dishes when they come over.

[photon]

How is this not posted yet.

[northcrunk]

lol vegecurious

[Dan02]

Originally Posted by northcrunk

Should we just de-evolve slowly and go back into the trees and walking on all four limbs? Is it really in the best interest of mankind to "evolve" into vegetarians? Diet is not an evolutionary outcome but will determine future evolution. We are just making our species weaker by not consuming protein. Personally I could care less what other people want to eat and my sister is a vegetarian so I'm used to cooking a couple vegetarian dishes when they come over.

I think T-Rich has the best argument there is for going vegan, we've evolved beyond the food chain, no one is saying we don't need protein anymore, but we now have the knowledge and ability to produce protein on a large scale that doesn't require harvesting animals.

The problem is very few people are capable of being strict enough on their diet to eat a fully complete diet as it is yet alone removing meat as a primary protien source, this includes most of the vegans/vegetarians I know. The preachers would have you think going vegan is the cure to all your health woes, but surprisingly, they're just as likely to be overweight and unhealthy as anyone else I know.