[News] Jimmy Vesey will go to unrestricted free agency

[sureLoss]

Originally Posted by dash_pinched

The Nashville Predators should have approached the Feb. 29 trade deadline knowing Harvard's Jimmy Vesey would not be signing with the team, according to a source close to the family.

http://espn.go.com/nhl/story/_/id/15...trade-deadline

I am sure Nashville would have if Vesey shouldn't have said 3 times he was going to sign with them. They took him at his word.

[White Out 403]

This loop hole should be closed because it's usually the same big American markets that benefit. Ridiculous for Nashville.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Or they could just have some compensation system where Boston gives up a pick of the same round the player was drafted in, perhaps?

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

He's completely right about Marner though. Suggesting that Marner has been disappointing in the one season since he's been drafted is just... wrong.

I'd also have to agree with him that after the draft they'll have the best prospect pool in the league, going by HF standards of prospects being players under 23 who haven't played 25 NHL games yet. Who else is it likely to be?

Yeah, I'd concur with all that. Toronto finally got the rebuild they should have started at the time Burke was hired. He may not be wrong when he says those things but like my dad always said "it's not always what you say but sometimes how you say it"... when Tuna says that stuff he sounds less like an objective analyst and more like a defensive homer.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

I just wanted to point out how scummy this is, rules or not. Furthermore it is a bad rule and needs to be changed immediately. I also want to point out how much I hate the argument, brought up a few times in this thread, of "it is what it is". That doesn't make the rule any less stupid. Just because the team knew about it and the player can exercise his right, doesn't make it any less dumb.

Teams need to be able to protect these players. There should be a date by which the team has to make an offer and if they don't the player can leave. I see no reason why a player should ever be allowed to go to free agency straight from college.

[sun]

Pretty brutal for NSH. Low for the kid not to make his intentions clear. Why string them along? I hate this rule/loophole.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Joe McDonald‏@ESPNJoeyMac
Source: Representatives for Jimmy Vesey informed the Predators days before trade deadline the prospect would not commit to signing with team

Obviously someone is lying. I tend towards believing the Preds, I really don't think there would be any way they would lose him before the trade deadline if they had any inclination he wouldn't sign.

I wonder if Vesey will get booed when he plays his first game in Nashville?

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

I just wanted to point out how scummy this is, rules or not. Furthermore it is a bad rule and needs to be changed immediately. I also want to point out how much I hate the argument, brought up a few times in this thread, of "it is what it is". That doesn't make the rule any less stupid. Just because the team knew about it and the player can exercise his right, doesn't make it any less dumb.

Teams need to be able to protect these players. There should be a date by which the team has to make an offer and if they don't the player can leave. I see no reason why a player should ever be allowed to go to free agency straight from college.

The reason is that you have to give the same rights to all drafted players in regards to UFA status. Both Junior players and College players Have 4 years after being drafted until they can be signed as a UFA. Junior players have the re-draft if they don't sign after 2 years, but if they go another 2 years without signing they go UFA too.

You can't just tack on an extra year because they decided to go to school, you'll see a pretty good swing away from NCAA, which IMO is not a good thing. The NHL should not be discouraging kids from going to school, whether that is officially, or indirectly by putting further restrictions on those players.

The NHL/teams can and should look at ways they can circumvent the NCAA rules, but that's a big risk for the player. It's the NCAA that needs to change their rules. Any other student can have a job while attending school, why can't a student athlete enjoy a signing bonus while they are at school? It makes absolutely no sense. The NCAA doesn't just cover hockey though, and I have no idea what the rules in other sports do in regards to NCAA players. But it seems like most NFL and NBA players come from there, so they must have something figured out.

What Flames_18_22_12 mentioned sounds like it's something that could work.

Originally Posted by Flames_18_22_12

I wish the NHL could implement a supplemental draft like the NFL for these situations. If vesey goes for the loophole, he does not become a UFA, but goes to a draft where teams would submit what round pick they would forfeit to sign the player, they would lose that pick in the next draft and it would go to the team that is losing his rights.

The uncertainty of what team they would go to would be enough to sign with whichever team originally drafted them (unless it was the oilers).

I also thought the "scholarship" idea was a good one, but that gets pretty hairy for the athletes in regards to what they can accept.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

I'm comfortable with saying the family are flat out lying. It makes no sense to offer himself up for trade if he only wanted to sign in one place all along. And if you're Boston there is minimal reward. You get him for the playoffs I guess. What would it get Nashville? Would it be better than their compensation pick? If the kid was a 4th rounder and Boston offered up a 2nd I guess it might be worth it...if they even thought it was worth spending anything to get him in for the playoffs.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

I see no reason why a player should ever be allowed to go to free agency straight from college.

Why shouldn't they?

The whole idea for the rules is to make the length of exclusivity roughly equal between the major developmental streams...

Major Junior: 2+2 (redraft)=4
European Leagues: 4
NCAA (1): 4 (Standard Program)
NCAA (2): 1 (junior)+3=4

... when you say they shouldn't be able to select a team straight out of college what you're saying is that they should get a worse deal then the other developmental streams and that doesn't make any sense.

Edit: I see MattyC beat me to the punch (and did it more eloquently).

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by MattyC

The reason is that you have to give the same rights to all drafted players in regards to UFA status. Both Junior players and College players Have 4 years after being drafted until they can be signed as a UFA. Junior players have the re-draft if they don't sign after 2 years, but if they go another 2 years without signing they go UFA too.

You can't just tack on an extra year because they decided to go to school, you'll see a pretty good swing away from NCAA, which IMO is not a good thing. The NHL should not be discouraging kids from going to school, whether that is officially, or indirectly by putting further restrictions on those players.

The NHL/teams can and should look at ways they can circumvent the NCAA rules, but that's a big risk for the player. It's the NCAA that needs to change their rules. Any other student can have a job while attending school, why can't a student athlete enjoy a signing bonus while they are at school? It makes absolutely no sense. The NCAA doesn't just cover hockey though, and I have no idea what the rules in other sports do in regards to NCAA players. But it seems like most NFL and NBA players come from there, so they must have something figured out.

Actually I see no reason why it would be silly to tack on an extra year. Why does the NHL have to treat all picks the same? And why would it discourage anyone from going the NCAA route? Other than the NHL actually not being allowed to do so under employment regulations (or some other legal provision).

All it would do is prevent scumbags like this kid from reneging on their word.

Originally Posted by Parallex

Why shouldn't they?

The whole idea for the rules is to make the length of exclusivity roughly equal between the major developmental streams...

Major Junior: 2+2 (redraft)=4
European Leagues: 4
NCAA (1): 4 (Standard Program)
NCAA (2): 1 (junior)+3=4

... when you say they shouldn't be able to select a team straight out of college what you're saying is that they should get a worse deal then the other developmental streams and that doesn't make any sense.

How is it a worse deal? The leagues are fundamentally different. College players often don't mature as fast. There is a reason this never happens to CHL players. Ever. NCAA players and the route they take is fundamentally different. Why treat them exactly the same?

[Enoch Root]

Yeah, we know what the rules currently are. And we know why we have them. But the fact remains that they are not working as intended, and they are not really fair for all.

You can't blame Vesey or anyone else that's done it - the rules are what they are. And you can't criticize the teams for acting in their best interests.

People will do what you motivate them to do. And this rule motivates too many kids to circumvent the intended system and go to free agency.

So the rule needs to be changed.

I like the idea of some kind of supplementary draft, personally.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Actually I see no reason why it would be silly to tack on an extra year. Why does the NHL have to treat all picks the same? And why would it discourage anyone from going the NCAA route?

All it would do is prevent scumbags like this kid from reneging on their word.

I'm not saying it's silly, I'm saying they couldn't do it. As in the PA wouldn't allow it.

[CaptainCrunch]

Teams are simply going to stop burning high draft picks on college boys.

Its too be of a risk to see a first round pick being turned into a second round compensation.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

How is it a worse deal?

That should be apparent on it's face... players from every other stream would be eligible to select the team they want to play for from among his suitors a full year earlier then the guys who go to school. That's plainly a worse deal. You shouldn't punish someone for going to school.

The system works fine. The only thing I'd change at all would be the compensation grid for unsigned picks. Do it more like how baseball does it... contingent upon offering a bonafide minimum offer the compensation becomes the draft slot originally held +1 (so the comp for a pick selected #20 overall becomes #21 not #50).

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

How is it a worse deal? The leagues are fundamentally different. College players often don't mature as fast. There is a reason this never happens to CHL players. Ever. NCAA players and the route they take is fundamentally different. Why treat them exactly the same?

The reason it rarely happens with CHL players is that they can sign with their teams anytime, and if they don't within 2 years, they will get redrafted.

So in order to hit FA, a CHL player has to refuse to sign with his NHL team, get drafted to who-knows-where, refuse to sign with THAT team, and then they are UFA. There are a lot of options for teams in that scenario, and a lot of headache for a player that wants to force a signing to his preferred team.

These are rules that the NHL just can't apply to an NCAA draftee because there's no way of getting a player to commit before they leave college under the NCAA rules. But the PA will still fight for the 4 years to UFA for all draftees.

The crappiest part of all of this is that it's the NCAA, through their own ridiculousness, that will drive talent away from their league. NHL teams won't spend high picks on college or college-bound players, thus players are less likely to go to the NCAA. Which is bad for the NCAA as well as the kids IMO.

It's absolutely stupid that NCAA doesn't even allow letters of intent. I mean, can't a business or law student have a job lined up after for when they graduate? Can't they spend their free time working at said job for money? Can the firms pay for their education as part of them wanting to join their company? It's ridiculous that they give these rules for their student athletes. It makes no sense.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Parallex

That should be apparent on it's face... players from every other stream would be eligible to select the team they want to play for from among his suitors a full year earlier then the guys who go to school. That's plainly a worse deal. You shouldn't punish someone for going to school.

The system works fine. The only thing I'd change at all would be the compensation grid for unsigned picks. Do it more like how baseball does it... contingent upon offering a bonafide minimum offer the compensation becomes the draft slot originally held +1 (so the comp for a pick selected #20 overall becomes #21 not #50).

MattyC already explains below why the situations aren't comparable so I won't elaborate any further. CHL and NCAA are not the same, why are they treated the same?

And if you're suggesting changes then obviously the system doesn't work fine. There should never be an incentive to not sign with your team. That rule should only exist to allow players a chance to go after opportunities if the team that drafted them has no plans to sign them.

Originally Posted by MattyC

The reason it rarely happens with CHL players is that they can sign with their teams anytime, and if they don't within 2 years, they will get redrafted.

So in order to hit FA, a CHL player has to refuse to sign with his NHL team, get drafted to who-knows-where, refuse to sign with THAT team, and then they are UFA. There are a lot of options for teams in that scenario, and a lot of headache for a player that wants to force a signing to his preferred team.

Again, reiterating the rules that we are all aware of doesn't actually address the problem. I know why CHL players don't do it. And since you've acknowledged that the two paths are totally different and CHL players have a huge disincentive to hold out, you've helped support my argument that a different system needs to be used for NCAA players.

These are rules that the NHL just can't apply to an NCAA draftee because there's no way of getting a player to commit before they leave college under the NCAA rules. But the PA will still fight for the 4 years to UFA for all draftees.

The crappiest part of all of this is that it's the NCAA, through their own ridiculousness, that will drive talent away from their league. NHL teams won't spend high picks on college or college-bound players, thus players are less likely to go to the NCAA. Which is bad for the NCAA as well as the kids IMO.

It's absolutely stupid that NCAA doesn't even allow letters of intent. I mean, can't a business or law student have a job lined up after for when they graduate? Can't they spend their free time working at said job for money? Can the firms pay for their education as part of them wanting to join their company? It's ridiculous that they give these rules for their student athletes. It makes no sense.

I agree with you about the NCAA and their rules.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by MattyC

I mean, can't a business or law student have a job lined up after for when they graduate? Can't they spend their free time working at said job for money? Can the firms pay for their education as part of them wanting to join their company? It's ridiculous that they give these rules for their student athletes. It makes no sense.

They can do that (maybe not pay for the education part since I'm sure that would be considered cap circumvention unless the value of the tuition was calculated in)... they just can't get an athletic scholarship or play for the school team but they could still get the education (provided they have the grades). Johnny took a summer semester to get his last few credits after he signed to finish off his degree, Marcus Stroman got his degree from Duke while he was rehabbing etc. etc.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Again, reiterating the rules that we are all aware of doesn't actually address the problem. I know why CHL players don't do it. And since you've acknowledged that the two paths are totally different and CHL players have a huge disincentive to hold out, you've helped support my argument that a different system needs to be used for NCAA players.


I agree with you about the NCAA and their rules.

I don't disagree that the system needs to be different than CHL players. But that difference just can't be an extra year tacked on after graduating. It just can't be. Not because anyone thinks that's silly, or because it doesn't make sense, but because it just straight up won't be allowed by the PA. The rules are structured such that a draftee has 4 years to UFA, regardless of the path they chose. That HAS to remain.

The redraft if refusing to sign is probably the best solution. But even in that situation, they could (should, if the 4 year rule is to remain) still refuse to sign with the team that re-drafted them.

The NHL doesn't give a crap where it's players come from, but once they are drafted, the UFA status has to be the same number of years as for all draftees. It really has to be the NCAA that takes the lead on this. As it stands, they are actively deterring players from going through their program. It makes no sense.

Originally Posted by Parallex

They can do that (maybe not pay for the education part since I'm sure that would be considered cap circumvention unless the value of the tuition was calculated in)... they just can't get an athletic scholarship or play for the school team but they could still get the education (provided they have the grades). Johnny took a summer semester to get his last few credits after he signed to finish off his degree, Marcus Stroman got his degree from Duke while he was rehabbing etc. etc.

Right. This is exactly the problem. Why can't student athletes use their skills to secure a job after school just like any other student?

[squiggs96]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Yeah, I'm tired of these pieces of crap walking away from the teams that drafted them. Hard to believe this hasn't been fixed in the CBA yet.

Piece of crap? Give your head a shake. What about the scenarios where the player wants to sign, and the team doesn't? If Vesey wanted to sign last year, but the Preds didn't want him yet, why should he stay. This doesn't even have to be specific to him. It would be great if every player went to the team they were drafted by, but there are a variety of reasons why it doesn't happen. It doesn't mean he's a piece of crap.