Pakistan Park Attack Targeting Christians Kills 65, Mostly Children

[nik-]

I'd also like to add. People living in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia ... I don't blame them one bit for not doing anything. Their lives are legitimately in danger. My problem is really in our society, where we are generally safe from all of these dangers that people still become apologists and toss out "Islamophobia" to just completely shut down valid criticisms. If we can't in a free society even find the will to talk about something wrong because we're scared to sound racist, it's a real shame.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by nik-

I agree that this will never be fixed by bombs and only by the questioning of the doctrine by the masses.

There are people doing good work, but that's the small minority, which thankfully seems to be growing. The implication that PepsiFree made that it's the majority who are fighting against this stuff while a small minority do nothing is false and should be called to task.

How many Muslims do you think are fighting for/with ISIS? What do you consider 'fighting' against that? Physical altercations only? Only people that get papers and article published? Only people that have had to give their lives in the effected places? Is one young Muslim saying to another "don't listen to those people. They are crazy and everything that is wrong with our world" not fighting it by questioning the doctrine?

The point is, just because you don't see the fight, doesn't mean it's not happening. If you agree that there are more Muslims that are against ISIS than are fighting for them, then you have to agree that it is a majority.

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Constantly. All over the place. Especially in outlets like Salon and TYT, but not exclusively there. It has a broad reach. On the flip side, its prevalence and peoples' getting fed up with it is why @RubinReport is a thing.

Spoiler!

See, to me, is that not the only way we can fight it? By undercutting their motivations and goals, relegating them to 'crazies' and all around not taking it as a serious threat? That's not to say that it's not, of course many people have died because of them. But isn't undermining them the only way we can really try to pull support away from them?

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

It's a broader question than who is against ISIS, though. Al Qaeda is against ISIS. This does not make them moderate or somehow part of the solution.

I'm basically just shilling for the Muslim Reform Movement at this point but they're basically the Muslims saying "don't listen to those people. They are crazy and everything that is wrong with our world", and they're certainly fighting it by questioning the doctrine. That's good. We all need to continue empowering them and lending additional support to that message. The fact that those people all have legitimate security concerns, or that Maajid Nawaz gets death threats for saying "I am not offended by a cartoon of Muhammad", or that Ayaan Hirsi Ali had to have RPG-proof glass installed in her apartment, and a huge contingent of people consistently take the view that they are the problem (rather than the people stoning adulterers) should indicate to you that this conversation needs to go on until these minority anti-human-rights views are rendered effectively inert.

[nik-]

Yeah, I never said a majority were for ISIS, I just said it's not an insignificant minority.

And ISIS support isn't the only barometer. Like I said previously in my "what is a moderate" post which people seemed to ignore, there is a lot more than just flat out supporting ISIS to put someone completely out of step with modern secular society.

[Coach]

True, I should have put extremism instead of ISIS.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Where is this happening? I don't see anyone holding their tongues against ultra-conservative Muslim extremism.

You need to get out more. Major media outlets like the CBC, the Guardian, and the majority of columnists at papers like the Globe & Mail hew to the modern leftist party line championed by Noam Chomsky: the West is responsible for almost everything that's wrong in the world, and there's no point talking about the stuff we're not responsible for because we can't change it. Which leaves no room for criticism of Islamic extremism.

[smiggy77]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

And I have never said otherwise.



There are moderate Muslims who have contact with radicals. Those are the ones who can help drive back radicalism. Why is that so difficult to understand?



While the number of Islamic fundamentlists in Canada and the U.S. is very small, that isn't true of the rest of the West.

Two-thirds of the Muslims in Europe believe Sharia law should take precedence over the secular laws of the country where they reside. 40 per cent of Muslims in the UK want Sharia law. That's about 1.2 million British citizens. 11 per cent of Muslims in the UK approved of the murder of the Charlie Hebdo cartoonists. That's about 270,000 British citizens. I doubt those million or so fundamentalist British Muslims have zero contact whatsoever with the million and a half British Muslims who prefer secular law, and disapprove of murdering cartoonists. Where those two groups come into contact is the front line of the ideological struggle for Islam. That front line cuts through neighbourhoods, mosques, and households. We need to support the people who are the right side of that line. And they need to recognize that they're the only ones who can achieve anything more than tactical successes against radical Islam.

And there are Muslims who agree with me.

We must take the lead in fighting and hunting down extremists, not just beside, but ahead of, our Christian, and Jewish brothers and sisters.
In the wake of the Charlie Hebdo attacks earlier this year, I felt it was my duty as a concerned Muslim citizen to express my outrage at having my religion hijacked by mindless thugs.

With several French Muslim theologians and intellectuals, we launched the “Khlass le silence!” (“Enough with the silence!”) movement, which called on French Muslims to take the lead in the struggle against the monsters who make a sordid mockery of our religion.

Mind posting sources for these stats?

[smiggy77]

Originally Posted by nik-

Um, go back and read my posts. I didn't call on anyone here to do anything. The only thing I call for is for people to stop pretending this is some insignificantly small minority and accept that, just like other religions, which we feel no hesitation to criticize, there are serious problems with the doctrine. Which is exacerbated by way too many people taking it literally.

The question is what would you want western muslims to do? You want us to create an army and go after ISIS? All we can do is fight with our words and try to unite one side.

Since 2001, I've had to constantly educate people and let them know that terrorism doesn't represent Islam. Radicals do not represent me. I was born and raised in Canada, I work hard and employ people, I'm an avid hockey player and a massive Flames fan that watches sports. I consider myself Canadian. I believe in women's rights and I love my girlfriend and don't plan on marrying 6 wives. I don't really agree with bill C-51 proposed by the conservatives but politically, I strongly believe in the conservatives federally and provincially.

Imagine having to repeat this over and over for 15 years, starting in my mid-teens. Islamophobia does exist because everyone likes to take the easy route out and run with the masses. The amount of times I've been called a terrorist on the ice is ridiculous and I'm a fairly mentally strong person. Imagine those kids who have social anxiety and get bullied all the time.

I'm really interested on what your perspective on what I should be doing differently? Fight fire with fire or go by what I've been taught as a kid that using our words to educate?

What more can my Father do to fight these issues? He can use words and educate but he has the softest heart and can't hurt a fly. How are you expecting him to go fight as well? All we can do is use our words. We believe in peace, not war or harm. If we thought fighting is the answer, we're just as bad the terrorists.

[nik-]

I think I pretty clearly stated I'm not calling anyone into combat action. I want liberal westerners in general, not just muslims, to continue supporting, vocally, the people that are taking strong stances against this. It's starting, and lets hope it continues.

My stance has been pretty consistent through this, that the practice of silence from some and defending on cultural grounds from others is bull####, and that the religious doctrine responsible for a lot of this should be totally open to criticism without the "racist" deflections. I don't feel that's an extreme belief on my part.

[smiggy77]

Originally Posted by nik-

I think I pretty clearly stated I'm not calling anyone into combat action. I want liberal westerners in general, not just muslims, to continue supporting, vocally, the people that are taking strong stances against this. It's starting, and lets hope it continues.

My stance has been pretty consistent through this, that the practice of silence from some and defending on cultural grounds from others is bull####, and that the religious doctrine responsible for a lot of this should be totally open to criticism without the "racist" deflections. I don't feel that's an extreme belief on my part.

But it has been happening. It's been happening since 2001. Just google Muslims are not terrorists and you'll find ample amount of evidence that it has been happening. Because you don't see news coverage on it, does it mean it isn't happening? I think people in my position are just frustrated because no one is listening to what we have been saying for 15 years because it doesn't get main stream media attention. To us, it feels like islamophobia exists because that is the only thing reported in the media.

And I'm not blaming you for this because it's the media that skews public perception.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by smiggy77

Mind posting sources for these stats?

Poll reveals 40pc of Muslims want sharia law in UK

Over a quarter of British Muslims have sympathy for the Charlie Hebdo terrorists. That is far too many

For an in-depth article on the cultural divide between Muslims and non-Muslims in Europe (including statistics): France’s False Choice

[smiggy77]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Poll reveals 40pc of Muslims want sharia law in UK

Over a quarter of British Muslims have sympathy for the Charlie Hebdo terrorists. That is far too many

For an in-depth article on the cultural divide between Muslims and non-Muslims in Europe (including statistics): France’s False Choice

I can't speak for muslims in the UK but I really don't think a 500 person sample size is sufficient to represent the views of 2.7 million people.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by smiggy77

The question is what would you want western muslims to do? You want us to create an army and go after ISIS? All we can do is fight with our words and try to unite one side.

Since 2001, I've had to constantly educate people and let them know that terrorism doesn't represent Islam. Radicals do not represent me. I was born and raised in Canada, I work hard and employ people, I'm an avid hockey player and a massive Flames fan that watches sports. I consider myself Canadian. I believe in women's rights and I love my girlfriend and don't plan on marrying 6 wives. I don't really agree with bill C-51 proposed by the conservatives but politically, I strongly believe in the conservatives federally and provincially.

As a Canadian Muslim, you probably aren't exposed to extremist Islam anywhere near as much as European Muslims are, not to mention Muslims in Egypt or Pakistan. So I can see how it must be frustrating to feel like you're being held responsible. If you lived in the UK or France, there are pretty good odds at least some of your acquaintances or neighbours would have applauded the slaying of the Charlie Hebdo journalists, or supported Sharia law. And one of the troubling facts is that support for extremism is highest among 16-24 year old Muslims in those countries. For my part, what I'm saying is that it's in those communities were regular Muslims rub shoulders with radicals that the struggle against radical Islam needs to be fought.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by smiggy77

I can't speak for muslims in the UK but I really don't think a 500 person sample size is sufficient to represent the views of 2.7 million people.

Pew polls have much higher numbers of respondents. This one was generated by 38,000 face-to-face interviews across 39 countries.

[smiggy77]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

As a Canadian Muslim, you probably aren't exposed to extremist Islam anywhere near as much as European Muslims are, not to mention Muslims in Egypt or Pakistan. So I can see how it must be frustrating to feel like you're being held responsible. If you lived in the UK or France, there are pretty good odds at least some of your friends, extended family, or neighbours would have applauded the slaying of the Charlie Hebdo journalists, or supported Sharia law. And one of the troubling facts is that support for extremism is highest among 16-24 year old Muslims in those countries. For my part, what I'm saying is that it's in those communities were regular Muslims rub shoulders with radicals that the struggle against radical Islam needs to be fought.

Yeah I guess so. I think also with the 16-24 year old age group are more vocal because in the UK, you'll find significant higher hate crimes occurring to Muslims there than here.

It's so bad there that radical non-muslims attack anyone who remotely represents muslims. It's so bad that they even attack Sikh's, which isn't remotely connected to Muslims (aside from the headcovering/turban).

[smiggy77]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Pew polls have much higher numbers of respondents. This one was generated by 38,000 face-to-face interviews across 39 countries.

Yeah but that one doesn't represent the views of North America or the UK. Not really apples to apples. Regardless, I do agree that in the UK, it is definitely much higher extremism views compared to out here.

But I'll mention it again, sharia law and extremism are two very different things. I don't believe in Sharia law but people should understand that sharia law and extremism do not go hand in hand.

Here is an article to help understand sharia law: http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religi...sharia_1.shtml

Keep in mind though, the implementation of Sharia law varies between various countries. If you look into Indonesia, Malaysia, or Bangladesh, they follow Sharia law and are not comparable to how Iran or Saudi Arabia implement Sharia law.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by smiggy77

Yeah but that one doesn't represent the views of North America or the UK. Not really apples to apples. Regardless, I do agree that in the UK, it is definitely much higher extremism views compared to out here.

But I'll mention it again, sharia law and extremism are two very different things. I don't believe in Sharia law but people should understand that sharia law and extremism do not go hand in hand.

Here is an article to help understand sharia law: http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religi...sharia_1.shtml

Keep in mind though, the implementation of Sharia law varies between various countries. If you look into Indonesia, Malaysia, or Bangladesh, they follow Sharia law and are not comparable to how Iran or Saudi Arabia implement Sharia law.

Arbitrary lines of extremism.

To me, wanting to replace the law of the land with a religiously inspired law is extreme.

[Looch City]

Originally Posted by nik-

Arbitrary lines of extremism.

To me, wanting to replace the law of the land with a religiously inspired law is extreme.

Well in that case, extremism is widely rampant in the US as well...

[smiggy77]

Originally Posted by nik-

Arbitrary lines of extremism.

To me, wanting to replace the law of the land with a religiously inspired law is extreme.

Once again, dependable on what level of sharia law. If these are Indonesian, Malaysian, or even Turkish immigrants/PR/citizens who feel safer and less oppressed in their native countries and if they feel that the government infringes on their rights in the UK and were asked what they prefer, I'm sure they'd say the sharia law that they've seen before.

If it's a radical, then they'd say sharia law also. Once again, you can't generalize because there are more than one perspective.

But now we're simply speculating and I don't feel comfortable arguing on behalf of Sharia law but the moral of my argument is that there are always different sides to a story. I don't think it's fair to equate the two to each other.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by smiggy77

Once again, dependable on what level of sharia law. If these are Indonesian, Malaysian, or even Turkish immigrants/PR/citizens who feel safer and less oppressed in their native countries and if they feel that the government infringes on their rights in the UK and were asked what they prefer, I'm sure they'd say the sharia law that they've seen before.

If it's a radical, then they'd say sharia law also. Once again, you can't generalize because there are more than one perspective.

But now we're simply speculating and I don't feel comfortable arguing on behalf of Sharia law but the moral of my argument is that there are always different sides to a story. I don't think it's fair to equate the two to each other.

We have a fundamental disagreement here that we're not going to traverse if you believe this is the case.