Pakistan Park Attack Targeting Christians Kills 65, Mostly Children

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

I think it is fair to add as well that Israel is a western democracy, with human rights with the protection of minorities, regardless of sex, orientation or religion. The contrast between prosperity in Israel, regardless of religion, vs the rest of the region, looks terrible for neighbor governments. Vilification of Israel is vital to much of the Arab world's existence.

We need to promote Israel as a beacon of change for the region, not vilify it. If Palestinians simply prospered with Israel, it would be even worse (more sectarian violence) in the region than it is now for the region.

This is a laughable post. Minorities in Israel are one of the worst treated people in Israel and the U.N agrees. It's sickening how they treat black Jewish people there. Israel is a very racist country don't kid yourself.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by smiggy77

lol what?

To help educate you a bit, sharia law is a legal system created based on Islam in conservative nations and extremism (as conducted by terrorists) are actions of harm based on poor interpretations of extremely old verses in the Quran.

Your not educating me on anything. There is nothing "legal" about a ######ed perverted ideology. it isn't a real law at all,in the free world laws are voted on.

It was created for control in every way, money, woman, fear and so much more.

Fear is the number one reason western Muslims wont denounce it, don't bother to try and say otherwise.

[metallicat]

You're right, he isn't educating you because nothing of what he said got through to you. You misinterpreted his very first paragraph and probably stopped reading right there.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

To be fair, I think what he's saying is that Muslims ARE fighting against extremism. They ARE standing up. They ARE condemning it. The majority of Muslims do reject jihadism.

And I have never said otherwise.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

But your solution inexplicably is "moderate Muslims" need to condemn it. That is suggesting the majority aren't standing up and fighting against these people. They are. Which is why your solution is kind of superficial.

There are moderate Muslims who have contact with radicals. Those are the ones who can help drive back radicalism. Why is that so difficult to understand?

Originally Posted by smiggy77

lol what?

As a muslim, I'll be happy to let you know that we all denounce extremism ALL the time. Every single 'moderate' muslim I know always states that this is bull####, every muslim leader at the mosques also says this. Unfortunately since it doesn't hit main stream media, you don't see that stuff. You only see what the media puts out which is a fraction of what is going on in the world.

As for denouncing sharia law, we live in Canada. Muslims in the western world follow western law. To help educate you a bit, sharia law is a legal system created based on Islam in conservative nations and extremism (as conducted by terrorists) are actions of harm based on poor interpretations of extremely old verses in the Quran. The same exists with radical Christians, buddhist monks, and jews (Christian Heritage Party vs. Christian Extremists).

If Muslims in Canada and the western world followed Sharia law, they would likely be locked up based on Canadian laws, because last time I checked, there is no governance for Sharia law here.

With this new found knowledge, please tell me what you would like muslims to do to denounce this? Make signs stating 'Muslim's are not terrorists'? Make rap songs stating that terrorists don't represent muslims?

While the number of Islamic fundamentlists in Canada and the U.S. is very small, that isn't true of the rest of the West.

Two-thirds of the Muslims in Europe believe Sharia law should take precedence over the secular laws of the country where they reside. 40 per cent of Muslims in the UK want Sharia law. That's about 1.2 million British citizens. 11 per cent of Muslims in the UK approved of the murder of the Charlie Hebdo cartoonists. That's about 270,000 British citizens. I doubt those million or so fundamentalist British Muslims have zero contact whatsoever with the million and a half British Muslims who prefer secular law, and disapprove of murdering cartoonists. Where those two groups come into contact is the front line of the ideological struggle for Islam. That front line cuts through neighbourhoods, mosques, and households. We need to support the people who are the right side of that line. And they need to recognize that they're the only ones who can achieve anything more than tactical successes against radical Islam.

And there are Muslims who agree with me.

We must take the lead in fighting and hunting down extremists, not just beside, but ahead of, our Christian, and Jewish brothers and sisters.
In the wake of the Charlie Hebdo attacks earlier this year, I felt it was my duty as a concerned Muslim citizen to express my outrage at having my religion hijacked by mindless thugs.

With several French Muslim theologians and intellectuals, we launched the “Khlass le silence!” (“Enough with the silence!”) movement, which called on French Muslims to take the lead in the struggle against the monsters who make a sordid mockery of our religion.

[CliffFletcher]

Good column in the Globe and Mail today on the rise of violent fundamentalism in Pakistan and elsewhere.

Islamic extremists don't just hate the West

There was more blood in Glasgow. On Thursday, Asad Shah, a well-liked Muslim shopkeeper, was stabbed to death with a kitchen knife after he posted an Easter message “to my beloved Christian nation” on his Facebook page. Mr. Shah and his family belonged to the Ahmadiyya Islamic sect, which is widely loathed by other Muslim groups. His killer is thought to be a Muslim extremist...

In Pakistan, Christians are a despised minority in an increasingly theocratic state. Attacks on Christian churches have killed hundreds. Fear is part of their daily lives. Shahbaz Bhatti, the only Christian member of the cabinet, was murdered in 2011 after he spoke out against Pakistan’s blasphemy law, which carries the death penalty for anyone who insults Islam. Punjab governor Salman Taseer, another high-profile politician, was gunned down by his own bodyguard after he defended a Christian peasant woman who was caught in a neighbourhood dispute and sentenced to death for blasphemy...

In Pakistan, religious extremism has spread like a virulent infection. “What do you do when the madness is not confined to radical mosques and madrasas, but is abroad among a population of nearly 200 million?” Salman Taseer’s son, Aatish, wrote in The New York Times. Mr. Taseer argues that this form of radical Islam is neither medieval nor traditional, but something utterly new: a reaction against “the modernity that my father, with his condemnation of blasphemy laws and his Western, liberal ideas, represented.”...

The number of people who kill is small. But the number of people who share their beliefs is larger than many of us would like to think...

[Coach]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

There are moderate Muslims who have contact with radicals. Those are the ones who can help drive back radicalism. Why is that so difficult to understand?

So what can they do other than denounce what they are doing and try to convince them it's wrong?

To bring back the KKK example. How do you think the conversation would go of someone such as yourself trying to bring a KKK member into a more moderate space? Do you think they will welcome that conversation?

These extremists, by definition, cannot listen to reason. If moderate Muslims made up 99% of Islam and all 1 billion of them did all the things you want them to do (and are already doing), there are still 10 million who will label them heretics/infidels the same as everyone else. Their way is the right way, and everyone must live that way or die. We see from this very attack that they have no prejudice for who dies, if they are not with them, they are against Allah, and the sentence for that is death. That's it that's all. No one will convince them otherwise.

"You cannot reason people out of positions they didn’t reason themselves into."

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Two-thirds of the Muslims in Europe believe Sharia law should take precedence over the secular laws of the country where they reside. 40 per cent of Muslims in the UK want Sharia law. That's about 1.2 million British citizens. 11 per cent of Muslims in the UK approved of the murder of the Charlie Hebdo cartoonists. That's about 270,000 British citizens.

From that same study that suggested 2/3 of Muslims in Germany, Austria, Sweden, France, Netherlands, and Belgium think religious rules are more important than secular laws (percentages weighed against total population):

European Muslims (six countries) -
5.2 million might think religious rules are more important than secular laws
5 million don't want homosexuals as friends
4.2 million think the West is out to destroy them
3.8 million think Jews can't be trusted

Compared to American Christians:
24.5 million think religious rules are more important than secular laws
25 million don't want homosexuals as friends
49.1 million think Muslims are out to destroy them
20 million think Jews can't be trusted

Worth looking at the numbers if that's what you want to look at. When you name a high percentage in a small Muslim community, I find it difficult to give it the same weight when right next door there appears to be a much bigger problem in terms of scale.

Anyways, I'm stepping out of this one at this point (don't have much else to say without going in circles). I'll leave it this: in the future, don't say "I'm waiting for moderate Muslims to stand up against extremism" when you mean "I'm waiting for the Muslims directly connected to extremists to stand up against them."

In one, you're naming over 1 billion Muslims and discounting the fact that they are doing amazing things every day in a fight against this ideology (some of whom you've mentioned). In the other, appropriate wording, you're actually talking about the potentially millions of Muslims who are doing nothing. It's an extremely important distinction.

[nik-]

What amazing things are these masses doing?

Majjid Nawaz is doing good work, but the 1 billion? Where is the progress? There are more attacks than ever.

Hyperbolic idealistic nonsense.

[calgaryblood]

What are you doing Nik-? Are you fighting terrorism aside from behind a computer screen?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

From that same study that suggested 2/3 of Muslims in Germany, Austria, Sweden, France, Netherlands, and Belgium think religious rules are more important than secular laws (percentages weighed against total population):

European Muslims (six countries) -
5.2 million might think religious rules are more important than secular laws
5 million don't want homosexuals as friends
4.2 million think the West is out to destroy them
3.8 million think Jews can't be trusted

Compared to American Christians:
24.5 million think religious rules are more important than secular laws
25 million don't want homosexuals as friends
49.1 million think Muslims are out to destroy them
20 million think Jews can't be trusted

Worth looking at the numbers if that's what you want to look at. When you name a high percentage in a small Muslim community, I find it difficult to give it the same weight when right next door there appears to be a much bigger problem in terms of scale.

Why do I have to choose one or the other? I cheerfully denounce fundamentalist, conservative religion whenever I come across it. What I don't understand is why so many liberals who consider ultra conservative Christians their enemies hold their tongue when it comes to ultra conservative Muslims.

But surely the issue is that American fundamentalist Christians aren't stoning adulteresses to death, murdering politicians who stand up for Muslims, and setting off bombs in nightclubs and family parks. 95 per cent of the people killed in terrorist attacks in the last 20 years have been killed by jihadists. That matters.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

But surely the issue is that American fundamentalist Christians aren't stoning adulteresses to death, murdering politicians who stand up for Muslims, and setting off bombs in nightclubs and family parks. 95 per cent of the people killed in terrorist attacks in the last 20 years have been killed by jihadists. That matters.

Fundamentalist Christians have certainly killed more people in the US than jihadists have.

And Muslims are the vast majority of victims in those 95% of people killed in terrorist attacks abroad.

Worth thinking about.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

And Muslims are the vast majority of victims in those 95% of people killed in terrorist attacks abroad.

Worth thinking about.

Then you will appreciate this article.

My Father's Killer's Funeral

My father was the governor of Punjab Province from 2008 until his death in 2011. At that time, he was defending a Christian woman who had fallen afoul of Pakistan’s blasphemy laws, which are used by the Sunni majority to terrorize the country’s few religious minorities. My father spoke out against the laws, and the judgment of television hosts and clerics fell hard on him. He became, in the eyes of many, a blasphemer himself. One January afternoon his bodyguard, Malik Mumtaz Hussain Qadri, shot him dead as he was leaving lunch.

Mr. Qadri became a hero in Pakistan. A mosque in Islamabad was named after him. People came to see him in prison to seek his blessings. The course of justice was impeded. The judge who sentenced him to death had to flee the country...

An estimated 100,000 people — a crowd larger than the population of Asheville, N.C. — poured into the streets of Rawalpindi to say farewell to Malik Mumtaz Hussain Qadri. It was among the biggest funerals in Pakistan’s history, alongside those of Muhammad Ali Jinnah, the father of the nation, and Benazir Bhutto, the former prime minister, who was assassinated in 2007. But this was no state funeral; it was spontaneous and it took place despite a media blackout...

The form of Islam that has appeared in our time — and that killed my father and so many others — is not, as some like to claim, medieval. It’s not even traditional. It is modern in the most basic sense: It is utterly new. The men who came to mourn my father’s killer were doing what no one before them had ever done. As I watched this unprecedented funeral, motivated not by love for the man who was dead but by hatred for the man he killed, I recognized that the throng in Rawalpindi was a microcosm of radical Islam’s relationship to our time. It drew its energy from the thing it was reacting against: the modernity that my father, with his condemnation of blasphemy laws and his Western, liberal ideas, represented. Recognizing this doesn’t pardon the 100,000 people who came to grieve for Malik Mumtaz Hussain Qadri, but it reminds us that their existence is tied up with our own.

The person who wrote this op-ed piece in the NY Times is likely wanted dead by hundreds of thousands of his countrymen. It will surprise nobody if he's murdered. If you or I or anyone else posted a column critical of fundamentalist Christianity in the NYT, do you think we'd be putting our lives at risk? If that were the case, Richard Dawkins would be dead 20 times over.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Why do I have to choose one or the other? I cheerfully denounce fundamentalist, conservative religion whenever I come across it. What I don't understand is why so many liberals who consider ultra conservative Christians their enemies hold their tongue when it comes to ultra conservative Muslims.

But surely the issue is that American fundamentalist Christians aren't stoning adulteresses to death, murdering politicians who stand up for Muslims, and setting off bombs in nightclubs and family parks. 95 per cent of the people killed in terrorist attacks in the last 20 years have been killed by jihadists. That matters.

Where is this happening? I don't see anyone holding their tongues against ultra-conservative Muslim extremism. Including moderate Muslims. Which was the whole point of your initial post; that moderates are not denouncing these activities, when people in those communities are confirming that they, in fact, are.

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The person who wrote this op-ed piece in the NY Times is likely wanted dead by hundreds of thousands of his countrymen. It will surprise nobody if he's murdered. If you or I or anyone else posted a column critical of fundamentalist Christianity in the NYT, do you think we'd be putting our lives at risk? If that were the case, Richard Dawkins would be dead 20 times over.

Isn't the fact that this piece was written and published, and that the story it's telling happened, evidence that moderate Muslims are standing against the extremism, even at the risk of death or worse?

[nik-]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

What are you doing Nik-? Are you fighting terrorism aside from behind a computer screen?

yeah, 1 million terrorists blocked on forums and counting.

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by nik-

yeah, 1 million terrorists blocked on forums and counting.

In all seriousness...you've done nothing so why do you expect someone else on this forum (smiggy) who likes the Flames like you, likes peace like you, hates terrorism like you, and works and contributes to Canada like you, to fight terrorism?

Because he's a Muslim? its not on every Muslim to fight terrorism, some just want to live their lives. Just like you do.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Where is this happening? I don't see anyone holding their tongues against ultra-conservative Muslim extremism. Including moderate Muslims. Which was the whole point of your initial post; that moderates are not denouncing these activities, when people in those communities are confirming that they, in fact, are.

If you don't see this you're not looking at all. I don't believe that you truly don't see this happening. Leftist apologists are a pretty significant topic of discussion. The Ben Affleck/Sam Harris thing on Bill Maher was the most popular example where legitimate criticism is countered with cries of racism and "Islamophobia". Resa Azlan is another king of this. A lot of people get sensitive when Islam is criticized in the same way other major religions are openly criticized because some people can't separate the fact that most Muslims aren't white. As a result, they feel any criticism is racist.

It's the same card that some people play when anyone criticises something Israel does as being anti-semitic.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

In all seriousness...you've done nothing so why do you expect someone else on this forum (smiggy) who likes the Flames like you, likes peace like you, hates terrorism like you, and works and contributes to Canada like you, to fight terrorism?

Because he's a Muslim? its not on every Muslim to fight terrorism, some just want to live their lives. Just like you do.

Um, go back and read my posts. I didn't call on anyone here to do anything. The only thing I call for is for people to stop pretending this is some insignificantly small minority and accept that, just like other religions, which we feel no hesitation to criticize, there are serious problems with the doctrine. Which is exacerbated by way too many people taking it literally.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by nik-

Um, go back and read my posts. I didn't call on anyone here to do anything. The only thing I call for is for people to stop pretending this is some insignificantly small minority and accept that, just like other religions, which we feel no hesitation to criticize, there are serious problems with the doctrine. Which is exacerbated by way too many people taking it literally.

I don't think anyone considers it an "insignificant" minority. But it is a minority.

It's significant in their devotion to their misguided and terrible cause, but not in numbers. And there really isn't anything we have that can fight the crazy these people are using to justify their actions. Seriously, what can moderate Muslims, or anyone, do outside of denouncing their murderous actions?

All military action does is drive more people into extremism. Yes, the fix needs to happen within Islam itself, but the assertion that there aren't any Muslims trying to do so is just plain wrong.

[nik-]

I agree that this will never be fixed by bombs and only by the questioning of the doctrine by the masses.

There are people doing good work, but that's the small minority, which thankfully seems to be growing. The implication that PepsiFree made that it's the majority who are fighting against this stuff while a small minority do nothing is false and should be called to task.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Where is this happening? I don't see anyone holding their tongues against ultra-conservative Muslim extremism.

Constantly. All over the place. Especially in outlets like Salon and TYT, but not exclusively there. It has a broad reach. On the flip side, its prevalence and peoples' getting fed up with it is why @RubinReport is a thing.

Spoiler!