[GDT] Flames vs. Avalanche, 7 pm, SNF

[LanceUppercut]

You don't need to cheer for losses, they will happen organically as 8 of our last 11 are on the road.

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

So how come all the best teams are built with a foundation of players taken very high in the draft?

Edmonton is obviously the exception and 100% of the reason this debate exists at all.

Buffalo? Avs?

It's been a decade since CHI was really bad, since then they have not restarted. But always have new players displacing solid vets. DET is another good example.

You can't draft a winning culture and the longer you lose the harder it is to build one. I like what the Flames are doing.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

So how come all the best teams are built with a foundation of players taken very high in the draft?

Edmonton is obviously the exception and 100% of the reason this debate exists at all.

The majority of top players come relatively high in the draft.

This does NOT justify tanking.

[polak]

The Finns >>>>>> nothing points.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by polak

The Finns >>>>>> nothing points.

Sure. Unless teh guy we end up with turns out to be better.

Ortio, Bennett, Jokipakka, Wotherspoon, Ferland, Hathaway and whoever else developing and playing well >>>>>>> than them not.

[Enoch Root]

We had these EXACT SAME debates in 2013.

I cannot believe we're still having them.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Actually, Calgary won 5 of their last 9 games in 12/13 to end up 6th, when the desire was to finish top 3 so we could get McKinnon, Drouin or Jones.

It hurt them not at all.

Agreed. I really haven't been upset with the team picking up useless points rather than tanking. Year 3 of the rebuild and things have been working out quite well so far.

Perhaps one of the biggest reasons so many later round picks have worked out for the Flames is because of the dedication and determination they all have to compete and win games. Just look at Monahan who would be a top-3 pick if there was a re-draft.

Gio leads by example and our young guys are all trending up while Oiler 1st overall picks are trending down.

So that said... Go Flames?

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by LanceUppercut

You don't need to cheer for losses, they will happen organically as 8 of our last 11 are on the road.

For the record, I don't cheer for losses. The whining about people who do is what gets me. That, and the whining about people complaining about those who whine about the people who cheer for losses. It's like everyone is jockeying for the position of World's Greatest Flames Fan or something. I wonder, do all fan bases do this or are we just overly sensitive because of Edmonton?

[Red Menace]

well, we would have ended up in 29th in 2013 which is the spot that won the lottery...and then been able to pick MacKinnon.
I'm certainly more than happy with Monahan, but I wouldn't say winning those meaningless games didn't cost us something that year...

[868904]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Too bad we didn't go on big runs to end the 2013 and 2014 seasons. Going out on a hot streak would've totally been worth it, even if it meant drafting Morrissey and Perlini instead of Monahan and Bennett.

We wouldn't have had the playoffs last year but at least some fans would have the moral high ground. Or something.

Seriously, this tanking debate has got to be the most mind numbing crap ever. For me, it's actually the worst part of a season like this.

Thing is "tanking" hasn't worked out as of late. It worked for the Penguins with Lemieux, but not so much in other years.

The Oilers really tanked hard and ended up with the 1st overall pick and got guys like Hall, RNH, Yakupov. Good players, but not great players and it really hasn't worked out for them. Last year, I don't believe the Oilers tried to tank, they were just "no good" and maybe for that reason, the hockey gods thought it would be ok to award them Mcdavid. Meanwhile, the Sabres tanked hard last year hoping for McDavid and instead ended up with Eichel, that's karma from the hockey gods.

The Flames have never really tanked. They had a shot at the first overall and Mackinnion, but Hartley had the team playing hard and the team dropped all the way down to the 6th overall pick. We ended up with Monahan so it all worked out.

The next year, Flames were a bad team, but Hartley still had the team playing hard. We should have been a lock for last place and the first overall, but Hartley had them playing hard and ended up with the 4th overall and Bennett, again it all worked out.

This year, the Flames will probably end up with the 5th to 8th overall pick and who knows, maybe who they get in that range may end up better than the top 3. The top 3 are the best players NOW, it doesn't mean they will develop into the best players 5 years from now. It's not a McDavid / Crosby type of year. Look at the Red Wings, they arguably got the best player in the 2014 draft at 15th overall with Larkin. I don't know if I would swap Bennett from Larkin, but I know I would for sure take Larkin over Reinhart, Draisatl, and anyone else who went ahead of him in that draft.

[btimbit]

As far as winning/losing, I don't care much either way. The losses have silver lining I guess, but there better be a good effort out there. Just don't want to see Oiler-esque blowouts where the team just looks dejected and isn't even trying.

[polak]

Doesn't matter that it's possible that one of the best players from the draft might be lower, the higher the pick the more freedom the Flames have to pick their guy. The player they think is the best fit for this team.

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Sure. Unless teh guy we end up with turns out to be better.

Ortio, Bennett, Jokipakka, Wotherspoon, Ferland, Hathaway and whoever else developing and playing well >>>>>>> than them not.

Why not both? Just play Hiller. Everyone can play as hard as they can

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by polak

Doesn't matter that it's possible that one of the best players from the draft might be lower, the higher the pick the more freedom the Flames have to pick their guy. The player they think is the best fit for this team.



Why not both? Just play Hiller. Everyone can play as hard as they can

Simple question: you're a player on the team and they are playing a goalie that is disinterested and playing like crap because the organization wants to lose - do you not see this for what it is? Does it not bother you?

(okay, 2 simple questions)

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Badgers Nose

Buffalo? Avs?

It's been a decade since CHI was really bad, since then they have not restarted. But always have new players displacing solid vets. DET is another good example.

You can't draft a winning culture and the longer you lose the harder it is to build one. I like what the Flames are doing.

Some teams are poorly managed. It doesn't change the fact that the best teams are built around high draft picks that were obtained by being a bad team at some point. Even Detroit snowballed their terribleness in the 80s into championships in the 90s. If it weren't for Zetterberg and Datsyuk (luck), they would've had to take their medicine at some point too. I honestly think "losing culture" is an overrated term and wouldn't really exist were it not for our friends in to the north. Sports are cyclical, and good management keeps you good longer, and lessens the period when you're bad. But you still have to be bad at some point, even Detroit will get their's soon enough baring more late round picks being turned into franchise players.

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

The majority of top players come relatively high in the draft.

This does NOT justify tanking.

I never said it did. I really don't think any team purposefully tanks though. I mean, it happens, but it's not prevalent or anything IMO. I think some fans like to put the Flames on a pedestal like they are better than other teams for never doing it, but really 99% of teams don't do it, so we really aren't special in that way.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Badgers Nose

Buffalo? Avs?.

Buffalo is one of the best young teams in the league. They rebuilt very well and are poised for a step forward and a lot of future success IMO. Avs aren't nearly as well built but that's not because of Duchesne, MacKinnon and Landeskog.

[polak]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Simple question: you're a player on the team and they are playing a goalie that is disinterested and playing like crap because the organization wants to lose - do you not see this for what it is? Does it not bother you?

(okay, 2 simple questions)

Not if you alternate them. Then you can claim to be "seeing what you got"

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Simple question: you're a player on the team and they are playing a goalie that is disinterested and playing like crap because the organization wants to lose - do you not see this for what it is? Does it not bother you?

(okay, 2 simple questions)

I really don't think this ever happens. Players play for contracts and personal pride, they don't give a crap about the upcoming draft.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Some teams are poorly managed. It doesn't change the fact that the best teams are built around high draft picks that were obtained by being a bad team at some point. Even Detroit snowballed their terribleness in the 80s into championships in the 90s. If it weren't for Zetterberg and Datsyuk (luck), they would've had to take their medicine at some point too. I honestly think "losing culture" is an overrated term and wouldn't really exist were it not for our friends in to the north. Sports are cyclical, and good management keeps you good longer, and lessens the period when you're bad. But you still have to be bad at some point, even Detroit will get their's soon enough baring more late round picks being turned into franchise players.



I never said it did. I really don't think any team purposefully tanks though. I mean, it happens, but it's not prevalent or anything IMO. I think some fans like to put the Flames on a pedestal like they are better than other teams for never doing it, but really 99% of teams don't do it, so we really aren't special in that way.

No. The only high draft pick they had was Yzerman.

They built their team through free agency and knocking two picks out of the park (Lidstrom and Datsyuk).

[GranteedEV]

Getting Ortio into the .910s or better is the best end-game of a late season run. I have no problem losing every game he doesn't play but I have a problem with him not playing as many games as he can.

[Roof-Daddy]

I'm not cheering for a loss, I never do that, but I'm OK if they do lose, given the circumstances, especially if they play well and lose. Let 'em out shoot and out chance the Avs all night and if Varlamov steals one away, so be it.


And if they win, well I love watching the Flames win.