[Trade] Russell to the Stars for Jokipakka, Pollock & 2nd (becomes 1st if conf finals)

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Cole436

We are nothing like those Oilers teams or the young gun teams. As of right now, our core roster is at the moment.

Gaudreau-Monahan-X
X-Bennett-X
Frolik-Backlund-X
X-Bouma-X

Giordano-Brodie
Hamilton-X
X-X

X

As a barebones skeleton, it's pretty damn good. What's missing right now is the support around them. I'd argue that the four positions bolded are the difference between being a contender and a lottery team. All the others are exchangable.

As it's been talked to death here, we all know that the Flames #1 and #2 priorities this offseason are a goaltender and a big top six winger. If and when we get those positions solidified then we can give the room to our prospects to grow into the missing roles of our team (Namely a second top six winger and a top four defenseman.).

This team has a really bright future and I don't at all share the doom and gloom attitude from a rebuilding year of growing pains.

Yeap, and we should hopefully fill out one of those X's at the draft coming up with another high pick, and hopefully Gillies can take care of the last X at the bottom a few years from now. For the time being though, I doubt we get past this off-season with out a massive upgrade in goal to get us thru those few years while Gillies develops.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Cole436

We are nothing like those Oilers teams or the young gun teams. As of right now, our core roster is at the moment.

Gaudreau-Monahan-X
X-Bennett-X
Frolik-Backlund-X
X-Bouma-X

Giordano-Brodie
Hamilton-X
X-X

X

As a barebones skeleton, it's pretty damn good. What's missing right now is the support around them. I'd argue that the four positions bolded are the difference between being a contender and a lottery team. All the others are exchangable.

As it's been talked to death here, we all know that the Flames #1 and #2 priorities this offseason are a goaltender and a big top six winger. If and when we get those positions solidified then we can give the room to our prospects to grow into the missing roles of our team (Namely a second top six winger and a top four defenseman.).

This team has a really bright future and I don't at all share the doom and gloom attitude from a rebuilding year of growing pains.

The 2nd worse Flames team in Flames history 1996-1997

Fleury (28) Iginla (19), Stillman (23) Hoglund (24) 19 goals. Marty Mcinnis (26) added #6 overall draft picks Fata and Tzachuk... Derrick Morris was ready to Jump to the NHL in the next year joining Abelin, james Patrick and Zarley Z. on defense.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

The 2nd worse Flames team in Flames history 1996-1997

Fleury (28) Iginla (19), Stillman (23) Hoglund (24) 19 goals. Marty Mcinnis (26) added #6 overall draft picks Fata and Tzachuk... Derrick Morris was ready to Jump to the NHL in the next year joining Abelin, james Patrick and Zarley Z. on defense.

So you agree with us now. Thank you for illustrating our point that that team was significantly worse than the current team.

Gaudreau > Fleury
Monahan >> Stillman
Bennett v Iginla???? Too early to tell
Our 1st rounder this year >>>>> Hoglund
Frolik >>> Marty McInnis
Backlund >>> ???

Our prospects now >>> Fata/Tkaczuk who both busted

Brodie >>> Morris
Giordano >>> Albelin or Patrick or ZZ
Hamilton >>> Albelin or Patrick or ZZ

No comparison really. Thanks for joining us in reality. This years team is WAY better than the young guns era. Miles ahead. Light years perhaps.

IMO our organization has the most valuable and most promising number of young players, prospects and picks that we've ever had since the early 90's. The future is brighter than it has ever been in my entire time of following the team.

Nice troll job though, well trolled as always.

[Cole436]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

The 2nd worse Flames team in Flames history 1996-1997

Fleury (28) Iginla (19), Stillman (23) Hoglund (24) 19 goals. Marty Mcinnis (26) added #6 overall draft picks Fata and Tzachuk... Derrick Morris was ready to Jump to the NHL in the next year joining Abelin, james Patrick and Zarley Z. on defense.

I'm not sure why this is your response as it makes little sense.

We're not talking about potential prospects or projects that suddenly had a good season. That 97 team was a lot of wishing and hoping that these players would become something. That is not the case in 2016. The players we're building around are not some "hope" (outside of Bennett), they are established players.

We have 3 very, very good defensemen, and that's even if Hamilton stagnates his development as of today.

We have a superstar up front and and a 21 year old centre who scored 30+ goals laster year.

We have established talent in the bottom six in prime year players Frolik and Backlund.

Really the only question mark is here is if Bennett is a top six centre, and he seems to be answering that question this season.

Comparing these two teams takes a lot of mental gymnastics.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Something is wrong where Russell was supposed to be a #4/5 D-man on the worst team in Flames History and he goes to being #1/2 with the team at the top of the Western Conference standings.

There really isn't.

When a top guy gets injured the 2nd pairing guys eat more minutes. Russell did that in Calgary too.

He's been okay but not in any way spectacular in Dallas. No points 5-on-5, couple of powerplay assists, -1 in a winning team.

[dustygoon]

Russell looked good running the top PP unit tonight. They had him at the point with everyone lower. All he had to do was dish to Benn on his right or Seguin on his left for one timers while other two were in front (doesn't hurt that one is Spezza). Fun job.

[dying4acup]

Russell is doing in Dallas what he did after GIO got hurt last year. Stepping up at the most important part of the year.

I still call this trade a win for the Flames. Kevin is already showing there's more to his game than he displayed in Dallas, and we got a possible 1st(or 2nd).

Add pollack and this is win win win.

If we want Russell back, we can get him. I wouldn't mind, but I don't think there's room. And he'll cost too much.

[Bingo]

it's been an interesting trade deadline from an advanced stats perspective as players have done the opposite of what advanced stat practitioners have suggested

They all panned the Russell and Bodeker pick ups as they are possession boat anchors ...

Russell is #1 on the Stars in CF%Rel on the Stars after being the worst player on the Flames

Boedeker is #2 on the Avalanche in the same stat after being terrible in Ottawa.

So is it going from poor teams to better teams? (reach with the Avalanche)

The other case is the deal they lauded as brilliant as the Islanders used underlying stats as a Sears catalogue and picked up Shane Prince from the Senators but so far he is third last for the Islanders after being this amazing secret for the Senators.

Something to keep an eye on.

But I'll be interested to see what GranteedED has to say on the topic as well.

And Ricardo? He seems like that guy under a blanket in the basement of a house in the middle of nowhere peering out and professing to understand what's really going on. Brilliant trolling or shudder inducing oddness.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Bingo

it's been an interesting trade deadline from an advanced stats perspective as players have done the opposite of what advanced stat practitioners have suggested

They all panned the Russell and Bodeker pick ups as they are possession boat anchors ...

Russell is #1 on the Stars in CF%Rel on the Stars after being the worst player on the Flames

Boedeker is #2 on the Avalanche in the same stat after being terrible in Ottawa.

So is it going from poor teams to better teams? (reach with the Avalanche)

The other case is the deal they lauded as brilliant as the Islanders used underlying stats as a Sears catalogue and picked up Shane Prince from the Senators but so far he is third last for the Islanders after being this amazing secret for the Senators.

Something to keep an eye on.

But I'll be interested to see what GranteedED has to say on the topic as well.

And Ricardo? He seems like that guy under a blanket in the basement of a house in the middle of nowhere peering out and professing to understand what's really going on. Brilliant trolling or shudder inducing oddness.

I have been waiting patiently for some numbers to come out on these guys.

A trade is a great way to isolate and test a stat: same player, same season, but a different team - what happens to his numbers?

If his numbers turn upside down (which, while VERY early, has been the case so far here), and this happens on a fairly regular basis (i.e. not a one-off statistical anomaly), it pretty much obliterates the stats as being useful for individual players.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by blender

Beaten to the goaltending comment.

Pointless to suggest the Flames record has anything to do with anything else.

I disagree, Goaltending is definitely the prime culprit but our special teams need to take their bite of the crap sandwich as well.

On the PK, sure you can go back to goaltending, but our PP has been horrendous and thats due to some underperforming players.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I have been waiting patiently for some numbers to come out on these guys.

A trade is a great way to isolate and test a stat: same player, same season, but a different team - what happens to his numbers?

If his numbers turn upside down (which, while VERY early, has been the case so far here), and this happens on a fairly regular basis (i.e. not a one-off statistical anomaly), it pretty much obliterates the stats as being useful for individual players.

in a small sample size it certainly suggests that players playing on bad teams may have a negative influence on their underlying stats by players around them.

Or in Prince's case you can't take a 4th liner out of a moderate team and give him more ice time and responsibility and expect those numbers to continue.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Bingo

it's been an interesting trade deadline from an advanced stats perspective as players have done the opposite of what advanced stat practitioners have suggested

They all panned the Russell and Bodeker pick ups as they are possession boat anchors ...

Russell is #1 on the Stars in CF%Rel on the Stars after being the worst player on the Flames

Boedeker is #2 on the Avalanche in the same stat after being terrible in Ottawa.

So is it going from poor teams to better teams? (reach with the Avalanche)

The other case is the deal they lauded as brilliant as the Islanders used underlying stats as a Sears catalogue and picked up Shane Prince from the Senators but so far he is third last for the Islanders after being this amazing secret for the Senators.

Something to keep an eye on.

But I'll be interested to see what GranteedED has to say on the topic as well.

And Ricardo? He seems like that guy under a blanket in the basement of a house in the middle of nowhere peering out and professing to understand what's really going on. Brilliant trolling or shudder inducing oddness.

So Bingo is this the worst team in Flames History or not? Maybe have a poll. It has the worst record as a team.

If the goalies were totally to blame for this train wreck of a season then you would have to think that the rest of of the team would be asked to compensate and play a more defensive game.


When you are leading the league as a team in pts by the defense you have to think that you are going to be putting greater than normal pressure on your goalie.


You single me out and leave Flames Draft Watcher talent evaluation

Gaudreau > Fleury
Monahan >> Stillman
Bennett v Iginla???? Too early to tell

When Fleury was Gaudreau's age he had a 51 goal (2nd in league) 104 pts (8th in league) season and was +48. He had 96 NHL goals.

The equivalent of these claims would be:

Drasital might be better than Messier.

[Enoch Root]

This is not the worst Flames team in history, because there is more to it than points - you have to look a little deeper.

They have all kinds of young talent. They have some great defensemen to build around.

This is the best young core since the 80s.

The difference between winning and losing in the NHL is extremely marginal. Nothing went right for the Flames this year, and goaltending is a big part of that, but the question is: how far away are they from being competitive again?

And the answer, IMO, is that they are not far at all. Obviously, stable goaltending is huge. That, plus another scoring winger, plus the key young guys getting another year older, is more than enough to have the Flames back in the playoff picture, IMO.

And if that is the case, then there is no way you can call them the worst Flames team ever.

[handgroen]

jokipakka has looked very good, poised bottom pairing dman with size and skating very good pickup thus far.

[sureLoss]

Brett Pollock tells Freeway he has played RW for half this season.

http://flamesnation.ca/2016/3/13/cat...-brett-pollock

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

You single me out and leave Flames Draft Watcher talent evaluation

I singled you out for bringing in the oddest statistics and angles that never seem to fit the discussion any one is actually having.

FDW was doing his best to answer your question that really didn't have any connection to the topic you posted it in.

I'd prefer to just avoid the rabbit hole altogether to be honest.

[White Out 403]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Sample size

Beaten to it. Russel is a liability. Treliving got a Kings ransom imo

[Locke]

I hope Russell plays his heart out, the Stars make the Conference finals and that pick turns into a 1st.

Go Kris go!

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

So Bingo is this the worst team in Flames History or not? Maybe have a poll. It has the worst record as a team.

If the goalies were totally to blame for this train wreck of a season then you would have to think that the rest of of the team would be asked to compensate and play a more defensive game.


When you are leading the league as a team in pts by the defense you have to think that you are going to be putting greater than normal pressure on your goalie.


You single me out and leave Flames Draft Watcher talent evaluation



When Fleury was Gaudreau's age he had a 51 goal (2nd in league) 104 pts (8th in league) season and was +48. He had 96 NHL goals.

The equivalent of these claims would be:

Drasital might be better than Messier.

If all you are basing the late 90's team to this one is points, then a poll would be pretty pointless, no?
No doubt this team has performed poorly and will be in line for the highest pick ever by a Flames team. But the comparison to 97 is laughably bad. That team had one legit all-star type player (who is criminally underrated, given that he carried the offence for years) and an awesome rookie/prospect in Iginla. That was it. A few ok pieces, nothing on the farm. It was clearly the begininng of a long dark period. Lots of coaches, band-aid solutions (ugh, Amonte) and a general lack of accountability or plan on how to get better.

This team has lots of nice pieces going forward. Most have not reached their potential. The management seems to have a plan and isn't looking for band-aids.
As a fan who has attended games since 81, there is no question that I would rather watch this team going forward than the 97 team.

As for talent evaluation, I would take FDW's opinion over yours, 10 times out of 10.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Resurrection

Beaten to it. Russel is a liability. Treliving got a Kings ransom imo

I don't think he's a liability. Rather he reminds me of Okotoker...a guy ideally suited to a 4/5 role but can step into a larger role for limited lengths of time. I view the deal as win win for both teams particularly in light of the Stars' injuries on the blueline