Francis: Flames & Kris Russell are $1.5 million apart on AAV

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

I just want the period of suckage we're going through to not linger long.

Just don't want to have another season where people are looking at who's available in the draft with 2+ months to go. I want to see who we're likely going to be playing in round 1.

I'm sure that BT and BB will be figuring out how to address the needs in the offseason as well (getting at least one goalie and a RW).

Indeed.

I think we're in a great position to rebound quickly back into the playoffs if we can solve the goaltending issue for next season. Wingers aren't nearly as hard to find IMO. If Treliving can move Wideman at some point this offseason it gives us a lot more flexibility.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Indeed.

I think we're in a great position to rebound quickly back into the playoffs if we can solve the goaltending issue for next season. Wingers aren't nearly as hard to find IMO. If Treliving can move Wideman at some point this offseason it gives us a lot more flexibility.

He and Engelland are the two players that I am hoping are dealt the most at the deadline. It is very unlikely but both could be useful players for playoff teams with the lack of any D being available this year.

Probably would have to eat some of each, but their replacements would make less than a million each (Spoon/Nakladal) so that would be a big saving overall. Even if they eat 2.5 million between the two, the total cost would be 4.5 for those positions with a saving of nearly 4 million.

[Dajazz]

Nakladal and Wotherspoon have a total of what, 20 games experience? And they should now anchor our 4-6 spots. Mkay. Trade Russell, yes please, but we still need depth and experience.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

He and Engelland are the two players that I am hoping are dealt the most at the deadline. It is very unlikely but both could be useful players for playoff teams with the lack of any D being available this year.

Probably would have to eat some of each, but their replacements would make less than a million each (Spoon/Nakladal) so that would be a big saving overall. Even if they eat 2.5 million between the two, the total cost would be 4.5 for those positions with a saving of nearly 4 million.

In addition to Russell? That would be going overboard IMO. If Russell AND Wideman go at the deadline/offseason then I think it's important to keep Engelland. You can't get rid of all your depth. The danger with thinking of next year is that you always imagine a healthy lineup. This is misleading because often during the season at least one defensemen is injured at all times. So first imagine the healthy lineup, then imagine us minus one of Gio/Brodie and minus one depth guy. Now how happy are you with our depth? If you're still happy at that point then we have decent depth.

So let's assume Wideman and Russell are dealt before next season.

When Healthy
Gio-Brodie
Wotherspoon-Hamilton
Nakladal-Engelland
Smid

When sustaining some injuries
Brodie-Hamilton
Wotherspoon-Engelland
Kulak-Nakladal

That looks passable to me. But if we subtract Engelland too? We'd basically need to replace him. Not to mention Engelland is the only one of our regular defensemen who has a lot of jam and strength. That's an important element to have if we don't acquire someone else who can provide it.

Only way we trade Engelland IMO is if we re-sign Russell and then are forced to move Wideman and Engelland to get the cap in order. Can't trade all your depth, injuries are inevitable.

[dino7c]

People complaining about Russell are not gonna be happy with Wotherspoon or Nakladal in the #4 spot

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by dino7c

People complaining about Russell are not gonna be happy with Wotherspoon or Nakladal in the #4 spot

I think I would be

[Caged Great]

^ As would I.

If the Flames dealt all three, all they would have to do is sign one guy during UFA, which there are always plenty of options and possibly find a cheap #7 like Schlemko/Diaz as insurance.

With there not being a lot of D-men for sale this deadline and plenty of buyers, you may get a better price now than at any point. The added return would probably be enough for the concern of having to find 1 guy in the offseason.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Indeed.

I think we're in a great position to rebound quickly back into the playoffs if we can solve the goaltending issue for next season. Wingers aren't nearly as hard to find IMO. If Treliving can move Wideman at some point this offseason it gives us a lot more flexibility.

See this is what I don't understand. We scrape into a playoff position last year getting incredibly lucky, and sit where we are this year. Are we one, two or three pieces away? Hell no. We're bottom 5.

There needs to be a large change. Now maybe that comes from players suddenly progressing, but that seems like a lot. I think a fundamental system change is needed. We need a new coach

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

See this is what I don't understand. We scrape into a playoff position last year getting incredibly lucky, and sit where we are this year. Are we one, two or three pieces away? Hell no. We're bottom 5.

There needs to be a large change. Now maybe that comes from players suddenly progressing, but that seems like a lot. I think a fundamental system change is needed. We need a new coach

I don't think we've hit that wall quite yet. Most of the 2nd/3rd/4th line players and 4-7th defenders are not very good.

The Flames only have 4 legit top 6 forwards and are set to trade one of them (Hudler).

Last year we got by because the Flames were rolling three decent third lines after the first line. All of the 9 guys were contributing regularly. Now it's basically Bennett, Backlund, and Frolik that are contributing with any consistency. Moving the other six players out, allowing new blood to come in, either from Stockton or from UFA day/draft time trades will go a long way to address that. All four of the current bottom half D-men are horrid in terms of Corsi, an absolute disaster.

It's very much the same problem that the Oilers have with the exception of having three good defenders to their 1 (Nurse, who's below Hamilton even) and we have no goalies except two games from Ortio, while Talbot has been legitimately good for them. Too top heavy with no depth. There is only so much that Gaudreau can do by himself, much like Iginla all those years when it was basically him and miscellaneous randoms.

If the Flames address the talent/depth problems and the goaltending this offseason, and there is not a significant step forward in development where the team is basically where the Sharks are now, then you look at a different coach potentially. Until then we are dealing with an incomplete picture of what this team is. Also, shifting the message yearly is what got Edmonton into their funk in the first place, so being leery of following their playbook should be priority #1. Look at what the worst example of a rebuild ever did and do the opposite.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

See this is what I don't understand. We scrape into a playoff position last year getting incredibly lucky, and sit where we are this year. Are we one, two or three pieces away? Hell no. We're bottom 5.

It's not as simple as looking at the standings and concluding we're one of the worst teams in the league. You have to look at how and why we got there and if that will happen again next year.

-Will we lose Brodie to start the season again? Unlikely
-Hamilton won't need 15 games to adapt to the new Flames system since he's comfortable now
-Unlikely to start the season with 3 headed goalie monster
-Gio is unlikely to be rusty after coming back from major surgery since he's currently healthy (knock on wood)
-Moving Wideman could actually upgrade this team, addition by subtraction
-It's unlikely we'll have as bad puck luck as we had this year. The year before we got very lucky, this year we've been very unlucky
-We may get continued development from Bennett, Monahan, Ferland
-We may draft high enough to get a kid who can step in and have an immediate impact in terms of adding depth

And there's still time at the draft and in the summer to improve the team. I'm very optimistic that next year can be substantially better than this year. Why aren't you?

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

It's not as simple as looking at the standings and concluding we're one of the worst teams in the league. You have to look at how and why we got there and if that will happen again next year.

-Will we lose Brodie to start the season again? Unlikely
-Hamilton won't need 15 games to adapt to the new Flames system since he's comfortable now
-Unlikely to start the season with 3 headed goalie monster
-Gio is unlikely to be rusty after coming back from major surgery since he's currently healthy (knock on wood)
-Moving Wideman could actually upgrade this team, addition by subtraction
-It's unlikely we'll have as bad puck luck as we had this year. The year before we got very lucky, this year we've been very unlucky
-We may get continued development from Bennett, Monahan, Ferland
-We may draft high enough to get a kid who can step in and have an immediate impact in terms of adding depth

And there's still time at the draft and in the summer to improve the team. I'm very optimistic that next year can be substantially better than this year. Why aren't you?

It can get better, sure. But with an experienced Hamilton, healthy Brodie and two goalies, we're still awful, just less so.

A great teenager is needed and may provide depth, but isn't going to drastically alter things here. There needs to be structural changes. Russell and Wideman leaving helps, but it's not 25 points help. Teams do better when the coach changes.

You can't look at those reasons above and concise that's why we're not a contender. That's silly

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

It can get better, sure. But with an experienced Hamilton, healthy Brodie and two goalies, we're still awful, just less so.

Disagree. With better goaltending we'll be significantly better.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

It's not as simple as looking at the standings and concluding we're one of the worst teams in the league. You have to look at how and why we got there and if that will happen again next year.

-Will we lose Brodie to start the season again? Unlikely
-Hamilton won't need 15 games to adapt to the new Flames system since he's comfortable now
-Unlikely to start the season with 3 headed goalie monster
-Gio is unlikely to be rusty after coming back from major surgery since he's currently healthy (knock on wood)
-Moving Wideman could actually upgrade this team, addition by subtraction
-It's unlikely we'll have as bad puck luck as we had this year. The year before we got very lucky, this year we've been very unlucky
-We may get continued development from Bennett, Monahan, Ferland
-We may draft high enough to get a kid who can step in and have an immediate impact in terms of adding depth

And there's still time at the draft and in the summer to improve the team. I'm very optimistic that next year can be substantially better than this year. Why aren't you?

The flames have been outrageously fortunate this season when it comes to injuries.

[Mr.Coffee]

exactly. With even average goaltending this is a playoff contending team for sure.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

The flames have been outrageously fortunate this season when it comes to injuries.

In a way yes. But starting off this season without our best defensemen and one of our top two players in Brodie WHILE Giordano was rusty coming off surgery AND Hamilton wasn't comfortable yet AND our goalies were not confident was in a way the worst timing of injury and worst person to have it happen to that we could have gotten outside of one to Johnny Hockey.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

In a way yes. But starting off this season without our best defensemen and one of our top two players in Brodie WHILE Giordano was rusty coming off surgery AND Hamilton wasn't comfortable yet AND our goalies were not confident was in a way the worst type of injury we could have gotten outside of one to Johnny Hockey.

That's fine, but this team was in or near a playoff spot around Christmas.

What happened in January?

Was Ramo bad? No.
Was Hamilton bad? No.
Wad Giordano bad? No.
Was the team as a whole just not good enough? Yes.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

That's fine, but this team was in or near a playoff spot around Christmas.

What happened in January?

Was Ramo bad? No.
Was Hamilton bad? No.
Wad Giordano bad? No.
Was the team as a whole just not good enough? Yes.

We've had bad bounces all year IMO

And we could've survived one bad stretch last season if we didn't have a horrific start. Last year we made the playoffs despite going winless in 9 at one point?

Almost every team has one bad month. Once you start having several of them playoffs become impossible. Fix the bad start and you never know what happens from there. Fix the goaltending/defense early and the whole team is confident instead of completely lacking in confidence. It can all snowball badly or well. This year it snowballed badly.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

In a way yes. But starting off this season without our best defensemen and one of our top two players in Brodie WHILE Giordano was rusty coming off surgery AND Hamilton wasn't comfortable yet AND our goalies were not confident was in a way the worst timing of injury and worst person to have it happen to that we could have gotten outside of one to Johnny Hockey.

Where would this team be if Gaudreau had been hurt for 2 weeks in December?

A Monahan wrist injury?

I'm not trying to predict doom and gloom, but this 'while Hamilton was new' stuff is just garbage. Imagine if it wasn't Hamilton at all getting comfortable but Wotherspoon?

Bennett, Monahan, Gaudreau, Giordano and Hamilton have all played all the games they've been eligible for, an injury to any one of those guys would have been catastrophic for a team already in the bottom 5 in the league.

Those are real injuries.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

The Brodie injury basically ruined OCT for the Flames IMO because it happened at the same time as the other things I listed. Sure it could always be even worse but starting off the season badly affects everyone's confidence and the whole thing snowballed.

Agree to disagree if you don't see it the same, I'm not likely to change your mind.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

The Brodie injury basically ruined OCT for the Flames IMO because it happened at the same time as the other things I listed. Sure it could always be even worse but starting off the season badly affects everyone's confidence and the whole thing snowballed.

Agree to disagree if you don't see it the same, I'm not likely to change your mind.

I guess it also depends what you're optimistic about. I can see playoffs being a possibility, but on that 6th to 10th spot unless they change how they play.

I think they've got the roster already to be better than they are. To me that's where we see differently I guess