Francis: Flames & Kris Russell are $1.5 million apart on AAV

[Heavy Jack]

Brodie.... I dont usually but its TJ man...

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

They have lots of players to sell but a number of them have no value.
Hudler and Russell are the players that get you something.

At this point Jones, Hiller, Ramo are likely not going to get you anything. Even with Jones, if I'm a contending team I ask if he is better than what I have on my roster or on the farm - and he probably isn't.

So I'm not sure beyond Hudler and Russell - what you are expecting.

Would be great to see BT move out one of the guys with term left, but I also think that's a pipe dream.

If the Flames don't ship out at least 5 roster players, then we might as well get ready for 2016-17 to be a disappointing season as well.

Calgary has to free up roster spots in order to get enough turnover in order to make the team better in the offseason. If they are stuck with basically the same group minus Hudler/Russell/Jones then we aren't going to see significantly different results.

[Anduril]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

If the Flames don't ship out at least 5 roster players, then we might as well get ready for 2016-17 to be a disappointing season as well.

Calgary has to free up roster spots in order to get enough turnover in order to make the team better in the offseason. If they are stuck with basically the same group minus Hudler/Russell/Jones then we aren't going to see significantly different results.

Not that I disagree with the idea that this is not a roster you want to have moving into the 2016-17 seaseon, but there is still the offseason to make a multitude of other decisions which potentially include the likes of Wideman, Smid or UFAs.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by Anduril

Not that I disagree with the idea that this is not a roster you want to have moving into the 2016-17 seaseon, but there is still the offseason to make a multitude of other decisions which potentially include the likes of Wideman, Smid or UFAs.

I agree that there are many other opportunities, this is just the first one and the one where you're more likely to shed players because you have the most buyers of any point between now and next trade deadline. Even if the Flames have to retain salary on guys like Engelland up to the amount of a buyout, that would be fine by me. Engelland for 2ish million is a great #6 for pretty much any team. With Nakladal and Wotherspoon stepping up and looking better than any of the 4-7 guys that we have been using, it's important to give them the opportunity through the last 20 games to see if their first few games were just them doing good for a short stint or if they're ready for play next year. Hard to do that if you only trade Russell as Wideman will return in a couple weeks and you'll be forced to sit either the players you need to test or 6+ million on the sidelines.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

I agree that there are many other opportunities, this is just the first one and the one where you're more likely to shed players because you have the most buyers of any point between now and next trade deadline. Even if the Flames have to retain salary on guys like Engelland up to the amount of a buyout, that would be fine by me..

Of course it would be fine by you - it ain't your money.
If you are expecting 5 roster players to be moved out by the deadline I think you are setting yourself up for dissapointment.
And the thing is Englelland isn't a great #6 on most teams - he's an extra body on most teams, and I don't see teams giving up assets to get him.

The Flames are a bad team with bad depth. Their bad players aren't going to be easily moved.

[Firebot]

Originally Posted by dustygoon

Man....so hard for us pundits to get a sense of a dressing room, how people fit in, and a guys worth/perceived worth amongst his teammates. Messing with chemistry.

You pull too many glue guys out of a young dressing room, and who knows how it goes.

I have a soft spot for Hudler for his disgust at losing games a couple years ago when the team was so bad that we had no business winning any games.

Let's be honest, the glue guys on this team, for all the talk of how valuable they are, have gotten us to a bottom 5 team. The Flames are very far from what Edmonto has become, and will still have several great veterans on the team regardless of what happens with Russell and Hudler. They need to be traded for the continued improvement of the team, simply because they are too high of a cost right now.

Let us also not forget that Russell was a waiver fodder pick up, and the fact that we are here discussing the merits of a 5 million AAV contract, and the potential of a first round pick as a trade back, shows the value of how much work Russell has put in, and the right move by this organization. It is also very possible that Russell still resigns with Calgary for a home discount.

Nakladal and Wotherspoon have made every other Defenseman not named Giordano, Brodie or Hamilton expendable.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Of course it would be fine by you - it ain't your money.
If you are expecting 5 roster players to be moved out by the deadline I think you are setting yourself up for dissapointment.
And the thing is Englelland isn't a great #6 on most teams - he's an extra body on most teams, and I don't see teams giving up assets to get him.

The Flames are a bad team with bad depth. Their bad players aren't going to be easily moved.

Then I'll be disappointed. That happens from time to time, namely where the Flames are in the standings right now is disappointment. Just because it would be a missed opportunity doesn't mean that it's the end of the world, just that it changes the calculus for the end of June + UFA day and what's to come next season.

This is the first good crack at trying to fix the bad depth players in the organization. Teams do make bad decisions at the deadline all the time so it's possible they could make more deals. They should try to move as many of the depth guys as possible. If they moved 8 or 9 guys that would be acceptable to me as well, although it's extremely unlikely that they'll do that.

[Jay Random]

If the objective is merely to move out five players from the current roster, the Flames don't need to do anything. Hudler, Jones, Russell, Hiller, and Ramo all go *poof* at the end of the season anyway.

If the objective is to get assets in return for all five of those players, well, that's a pipe dream. Ramo won't play again this season, and Hiller's trade value is zero at best. Jones might be tradable for a very small return. This is why all the talk has been about Hudler and Russell.

As for depth players on a bad team, you very seldom have an opportunity to get rid of those via trades. They just aren't worth anything on the market. Nobody is giving up assets for the privilege of taking out Brad Treliving's garbage. It would be nice to have Bollig, Raymond, Wideman, Smid, and Engelland off the books, but there's little chance of moving even one of them at the deadline. For now, it looks like the Flames are stuck with them.

[browna]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Sorry but does Brad need to be reminded that this is team has the 29th ranked GAA in the NHL and worst PK?

That's just as much on the coach for systems play (look no further then the PP with top 5 on paper talent), but that's another story.

But, as far as roster players go, the previous GM wanted to get "younger and quicker" to be the anti-Sutter voice that so many thought they wanted to hear, until we're left with a team that gets manhandled by the top teams in the division. Wideman and Russel are that GM's two major defensive pickups.

The only physical defensemen are the 5 and 6 guys in DE and Smid. No one else is even close. DE can play increased minutes, and last year with Gio's injury he did, and got statistically better with the increased ice time, but he's not the long term solution in that slot by any means.

Gio tries, but not big enough, Wideman gets his hacks in but isn't pushing guys out with brute force. Russell way too small and Hamilton far too timid for his size, and Brodie a good mix for his style, similar to Gio.

Flames need a top 4 defenseman that can play top 4 minutes but be a deterrent in front of the net with size and aggression That's not Russell, and if the market is hot for him, you take a big return for him any day of the week and hope that the return fills one of the many gaps that this team has in the future.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

Then I'll be disappointed. That happens from time to time, namely where the Flames are in the standings right now is disappointment. Just because it would be a missed opportunity doesn't mean that it's the end of the world, just that it changes the calculus for the end of June + UFA day and what's to come next season.

This is the first good crack at trying to fix the bad depth players in the organization. Teams do make bad decisions at the deadline all the time so it's possible they could make more deals. They should try to move as many of the depth guys as possible. If they moved 8 or 9 guys that would be acceptable to me as well, although it's extremely unlikely that they'll do that.

Oh I'm sure they are trying to move players. I'm just saying I don't see the same opportunity you seem to.
I don't think other teams will look at depth players on one of the worst teams in the NHL, and think they can help them. I think most organizations will look within their organization and think what they have there is probably just as good as what Calgary can offer.

I'm sure BT is trying to move a bunch of guys. But I dont' think there is actually tangible opportunity there.

EDIT: Colborne could be a guy that goes I suppose.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by browna

That's just as much on the coach for systems play (look no further then the PP with top 5 on paper talent), but that's another story.

But, as far as roster players go, the previous GM wanted to get "younger and quicker" to be the anti-Sutter voice that so many thought they wanted to hear, until we're left with a team that gets manhandled by the top teams in the division. Wideman and Russel are that GM's two major defensive pickups.

The only physical defensemen are the 5 and 6 guys in DE and Smid. No one else is even close. DE can play increased minutes, and last year with Gio's injury he did, and got statistically better with the increased ice time, but he's not the long term solution in that slot by any means.

Gio tries, but not big enough, Wideman gets his hacks in but isn't pushing guys out with brute force. Russell way too small and Hamilton far too timid for his size, and Brodie a good mix for his style, similar to Gio.

Flames need a top 4 defenseman that can play top 4 minutes but be a deterrent in front of the net with size and aggression That's not Russell, and if the market is hot for him, you take a big return for him any day of the week and hope that the return fills one of the many gaps that this team has in the future.

Agreed. The top 5 defensemen on this team all play similar style and none of them are close to being shutdown defensemen. Keeping Russell ensures that this team is locked into a top four group of good skating defensemen that don't play physical for the important rebuild seasons going forward. Would much rather replace Russell with a defenseman that is hard to play against.

[browna]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Oh I'm sure they are trying to move players. I'm just saying I don't see the same opportunity you seem to.
I don't think other teams will look at depth players on one of the worst teams in the NHL, and think they can help them. I think most organizations will look within their organization and think what they have there is probably just as good as what Calgary can offer.

I'm sure BT is trying to move a bunch of guys. But I dont' think there is actually tangible opportunity there.

I am guessing that with the Russell being such a hot commodity among many suitors, if (at this point a few days in advance) he's trying to unload some non-expiring contracts along with him...driving down the return but helping out the Flames next year.

Ex: Russell by itself is worth a 1st round (just pretend)
Russell along with (pure example) Wideman is worth a 3rd (plus retain some of Wideman's salary this year, possibly or not).

Risky to try and hold out for that, and most teams don't want to add a second contract $ wise, a contract for next year, or another roster spot.

But Treliving may be able to swing something like that if a team is that desperate to win the Russell sweepstakes and that would be fantastic.

[Ro]

I hope this is just posturing by way of the media by Treliving in an effort to drive up Russell's value in any potential trades. As in "well, we'd really like to re-sign him, and we're trying desperately. So if you want him, you really have to pay up." Treliving is smart enough to do that. Right?

[Stanley]

Originally Posted by Ro

I hope this is just posturing by way of the media by Treliving in an effort to drive up Russell's value in any potential trades. As in "well, we'd really like to re-sign him, and we're trying desperately. So if you want him, you really have to pay up." Treliving is smart enough to do that. Right?

Of course he is...although I could see how there would be a genuine interest in re-signing him...

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

Is anyone getting a little concerned about the lack of trades thus far considering the amount of players that the Flames have to sell.

Not in the slightest. Often the best value can be had with the pressure of the deadline looming. Most of the deals happen on the deadline or right up to it.

I mean our situation has already improved. The best forward available went to CHI. One of the physical defensive defensemen already moved. CHI made another move.

Pressure is on the rest of the west to keep up with CHI. As more and more guys move other teams will get more desperate and that's when you can extract a nice overpayment.

It's normal to wait until the deadline IMO. Nothing to be worried or concerned about.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by It's a great day 4 hockey

When I think of Russell I think think of last year's playoff series against the Ducks. I remember watching the Ducks cycle and thinking Russell looks like child trying to play with men. I don't care how good he played for us when Gio went down last year the bottom line is our defense needs to get bigger and meaner. Russell has to go and if Treliving doesn't see this I think Burke does. Hope nothing but the best for Russell however I hope it's somewhere else.

To be fair Getlzaf, Perry, Kesler, Maroon, Beleskey and co could make 6'2 defensemen look like it was men against boys let alone 5'10 ones. It's a struggle for the biggest, strongest and best defensemen in the entire NHL to contain the skill, size and strength of those guys. Not a valid reason by itself why Russell shouldn't be retained.

Contract is the only reason we aren't re-signing Russell. He plays way bigger than his size.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

If the Flames don't ship out at least 5 roster players, then we might as well get ready for 2016-17 to be a disappointing season as well.

Calgary has to free up roster spots in order to get enough turnover in order to make the team better in the offseason. If they are stuck with basically the same group minus Hudler/Russell/Jones then we aren't going to see significantly different results.

The trade deadline isn't the only time before next season available to move players. There will be more turnover close to the draft likely. Probably more turnover in the summer too. Silly to expect all the turnover to happen right now.

[dino7c]

Russell is gonna get 4.5-5.5 on the market...not saying its a good deal but don't compare to Brodie who would be getting 7-8 if he was a UFA

If they could get rid of Wideman/Smid I would be fine with 4M

We get it the team sucks but that has more to do with goal tending and lack of large skilled wingers

[GranteedEV]

Here might be the closest contract comparable for Russell (2014-2016) I can think of:

Height  Weight Player       FF%Rel ESTOI ESPP60 Contract Signed
5'10"   172    K. Russell   -3.73  18.79  0.75  -        Age29/2k16 
6'01"   210    A. Martinez  -3.71  15.96  0.57  4.0Mx6Y  Age28/2k15

Given that the cap may go down and Martinez was

1) Bigger/Stronger (3"/40lbs)
2) Younger (1Y)
3) Part of a proven cup-winner
4) A better point producer

I would

1) Knock off two years of term.
2) Knock off 10% in AAV

That would value Kris Russell @ 3.6Mx4Y

That said, I think I still prefer David Schlemko.

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

The trade deadline isn't the only time before next season available to move players. There will be more turnover close to the draft likely. Probably more turnover in the summer too. Silly to expect all the turnover to happen right now.

But I want it all done now.

I just want the period of suckage we're going through to not linger long.

I'm expecting there not to be that many moves, despite wanting a lot done. We'll likely see another 2-3 trades in the offseason as well and probably another 2-3 at the deadline next year.

Just don't want to have another season where people are looking at who's available in the draft with 2+ months to go. I want to see who we're likely going to be playing in round 1.

I'm sure that BT and BB will be figuring out how to address the needs in the offseason as well (getting at least one goalie and a RW).